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marknorton

Hot Air and Broken Promises

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Bill Leica does owe me. They owe me to do correct service on the camera. Do they owe me or anyone anything else, NO.

 

I agree but I'm afraid that they also owe you for all the hassle you have experienced and the time you spent without a camera. They had your money you had nothing.

 

And in general therefore they do owe all those early adopters. I bought my first M8 6 months in. Was I expected to know that the RF for the M8 needed to be more accurate than in film cameras? Was I expected to know that within a year a line would appear on the sensor? Was I expected to know that Leica did not have the capability to fix these problems in a timely fashion. Was I expected to know that the AWB would be far less consistent than on any other camera in this price bracket? And the list as we all know could be longer.

 

Jeff

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It's a discretionary purchase. Nobody forced you to buy one. You exercised free will in your choice. Your life would have continued whether you had an M8 or not. Leica "owes" you nothing.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

I think being a pro it is. Not being an M8 user yourself, it might be a bit easier for you to sit back and say that our frustrations are of our own making.

 

Having used M's for years (and the purchaser of two previous NEW M film bodies) I do feel Leica owed me a pro body for pro use and service that I could rely on. It's the way I make my living - I'm not a "gentleman" photographer with money and time to burn. For $5K I didn't get that. And now they want another $1700 to bring the body ALMOST up to spec. The way it should have been in the first place.

 

Reliability I'm still not so sure about which is why I have a Nikon. I would prefer to shoot everything in my life with an M - alas for the time being it's just not going to be.

 

I think Leica just need to give in a little. Like a user input lens menu. Yeah they might lose a bit in lens sales to CV/ Zeiss and the used market but they might gain some sales in bodies as well. I know I jumped on Nikon because I could use old manual focus lenses. So give us more financially strapped users a break!

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The new EV control system requires a display in the finder (to see how much comp. one is dialing in via the wheel). That display change likely requires more than firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

In the M8.2, the EV adjustment is displayed differenly from the M8 where all you see is a flashing dot (and may miss - how many of us have set EV for a shot, then forgotten to reset it?)

 

The kind of display is:

 

3.0- or 1.3 or 2.7 or 0.3-

 

The existing display can handle this if the information is left justified within the 4 digits. The firt 3 7 segment digits are flexible, the right hand one appears to be able to show "0" only.

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Even by his standards, Bill is being unusually irascible.

 

On the one hand, it's good that the new shutter is available as an upgrade; on the other, I think even Bill on a good day would agree that the delayed shutter wind should be included in the upgrade cost, especially if there is no additional cost in providing it.

 

The fact that no-one at Photokina could explain why, the fact that Chris Tribble's letter (AFAIK) goes unanswered as does my email tells me all I need to know.

 

Strange, no-one is clamouring to have snap-shot mode... Funny, that.

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Even by his standards, Bill is being unusually irascible.

 

Not at all. Just reacting to "the sky is falling" folderol

 

On the one hand, it's good that the new shutter is available as an upgrade; on the other, I think even Bill on a good day would agree that the delayed shutter wind should be included in the upgrade cost, especially if there is no additional cost in providing it.

 

I think it's excellent customer service that the shutter is available as an upgrade, but that is a marketing decision, not a God-given right. I don't see Canon or Nikon offering anything similar. Similarly, it is at heart a marketing decision to deny the delayed shutter wind and I certainly do NOT agree that it should be included. I refer to my earlier comments - if you offer a COMPLETE upgrade to existing product, then there is no incentive for anyone to upgrade to the new product. Everyone hangs on to what they have, the secondhand market (the "on-ramp" for customers with less money while there is no new starter product available at a lower price point) is decimated through lack of liquidity. Worse, you choke off new sales to new customers because they see no differentiator to buying a secondhand product (if they can find one) and having it made "good as new".

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Bill Leica does owe me. They owe me to do correct service on the camera. Do they owe me or anyone anything else, NO.

 

Absolutely. Now there, I do agree wholeheartedly. (Don't faint, Mark

)

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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The fact that no-one at Photokina could explain why, the fact that Chris Tribble's letter (AFAIK) goes unanswered as does my email tells me all I need to know.

 

Strange, no-one is clamouring to have snap-shot mode... Funny, that.

 

Mark - still no answer on this ... and no answer re a firmware option to turn off S(tupid) mode permanent

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We have no right to expect that Leica will give original M8 owners anything. However...

 

Us original M8 purchasers put up with a lot of unexpected issues, and we literally kept the company going through some tough times. It does seem a bit harsh that to fix the shutter noise and framelines, we must now pay what an entire midrange body from their competitors would cost. And to get the delayed recocking, you have to buy a brand new camera.

 

Yes, they have every right to say, as some here seem to be saying, "Cry me a river, that's the free market, buddy." (And it's a little disturbing how gleefully some people here seem to be saying it). But that leads to another question: Is Leica a company that does the right thing by its customers, or does it do things because it can get away with them?

 

I am still not satisfied that the delayed shutter recocking is not something that is impossible via firmware upgrade. Leica has been asked directly, and so far the silence is deafening.

 

Turning your mistakes into hugely expensive cash cows may be the cleverest of marketing strategies, but it doesn't pass the smell test for me. I think Leica should offer original M8 owners a deep discount on the shutter and frameline upgrades, perhaps for a limited time. And they should offer everything possible via firmware update to all. Otherwise, all that talk about the M8 never being obsolete is indeed hot air.

 

--Peter

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I think being a pro it is. Not being an M8 user yourself, it might be a bit easier for you to sit back and say that our frustrations are of our own making.

 

Having used M's for years (and the purchaser of two previous NEW M film bodies) I do feel Leica owed me a pro body for pro use and service that I could rely on. It's the way I make my living - I'm not a "gentleman" photographer with money and time to burn. For $5K I didn't get that. And now they want another $1700 to bring the body ALMOST up to spec. The way it should have been in the first place.

 

Reliability I'm still not so sure about which is why I have a Nikon. I would prefer to shoot everything in my life with an M - alas for the time being it's just not going to be.

 

I think Leica just need to give in a little. Like a user input lens menu. Yeah they might lose a bit in lens sales to CV/ Zeiss and the used market but they might gain some sales in bodies as well. I know I jumped on Nikon because I could use old manual focus lenses. So give us more financially strapped users a break!

 

Dude, you assume a lot of things on your part and for those, none really cares.

When I see criticizing someone for "having money and time to burn" and mocking him at the same time, it makes me feel kinda sick...

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...if you offer a COMPLETE upgrade to existing product, then there is no incentive for anyone to upgrade to the new product...

So you think that refusing that complete upgrade to legacy customers is an incentive for what, Bill? If they cannot afford to pay the new body what are they supposed to do? Being unsatisfied with their body as is or selling their Leica gear and buying nikanopus instead? When i see how Leica behaves about the so-called 'perpetual' upgrade, the deferred R10 and the (presumably) overexpensive S2 i begin to wonder is the new slogan at Solms is now 'Not For You'...

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Let's just step back a couple of years here.

 

What did people who had M3s do when the M4 came out? They carried on using their M3s, or bought an M4 if they wanted the new features. Maybe if there'd been an internet then, they'd have been somewhere like this, complaining that the new camera has something the old one hasn't. Or, maybe they'd just be out there taking their photographs, who knows?

 

Ditto M4 -> M6 -> M7 -> MP etc

 

Ditto Olympus OM2 -> OM4 etc etc etc

 

You always had to buy a new camera if you wanted something "better". Now, Leica have offered a "perpetual upgrade" to the M8. An innovation in itself. No one has been able to find out whether this delayed shutter cocking that the new camera offers is even possible on an original M8 - it could be possible but a a prohibitively high price (even for a company that charges £30 for a plastic hood cover for a plastic lens hood...), so that it would be madness to put the upgraded shutter cocking device into an original. No one has said it's only a firmware possibility. (Correct me if I have missed this). AFAIK, even Mark N hasn't bought an M8.2 and disassembled it to see what's different inside. Yet.

 

So, they can offer perpetual upgrades. But maybe within the grounds of common sense. Who knows what upgrades they can and will offer in the future?

 

I really don't get this at all. From what I have seen, the original M8 makes great photographs, just as it is. I don't see the M8.2 making any better ones.

 

The R10 has not been announced, ever, so cannot be "deferred" (late to the block, certainly, but you can't defer something that has never been formally announced) and the S2 seems to be coming down in price every time someone mentions a price.

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Andy, the M3 or the M2 (or M4) did not need the upgrades of the M8 because they had no defects then and Leica did not promise a 'perpetual' upgrade for them. Also ask R users how long they've been waiting for a FF digital body. Not sure if they want to play with the word 'deferred' if you ask me. At least i don't with my new 5D personally. A bit sad to buy Canon for using Leica don't you think so?

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As a DMR owner (still) I know what R glass and a decent sensor can do, and I wish you well with your Canon.

 

I am looking forward to the R10 when it comes next year, and can't wait to see how large a chip Leica can install in it - it's going to be very exciting - and worth the wait, IMHO.

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Was any time scale indicated in these 'perpetual upgrades'? Did Leica ever say they would offer them all at the same time?

 

My personal take is that the person who offered these upgrades is gone, history, toast. It would be better to get what you can out of the M8 rather than anguish over what it is not.

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...I am looking forward to the R10 when it comes next year....

Who told you that it comes next year Andy, if i may ask? I've been told not before the next photokina.

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No one - just a guess. But given that all the hard work has already been done as part of the AFRika R&D with the S2, which is real, live, and working today, I don't see it taking very long (in Leica terms) to get the R10 out and about.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are R10s already being used and tested already.

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I think that if Leica had introduced the M8.2 at the same price as the original M8 there would not be all the aggravation expressed here. People would just get out and buy a new M8.2 and take a slightly bigger loss on their old M8s.

 

I fail to understand why Leica finds itself unable to do that. If they are trying to preserve the value of SH M8s that strategy might have been OK in the film world but not in the digi world.

 

In fact I'd probably look more seriously at the M8.2, as it is I'm skipping an upgrade, just like I do with Adobe software at its silly UK prices.

 

So my take is that Leica like Adobe is the loser in this scenario.

 

Jeff

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Probably one of the reasons why he went...

 

I think this is probably a huge problem for Leica right now.

 

They're undoubtedly in serious damage-control mode, and it's going to take a while to straighten things out.

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So you think that refusing that complete upgrade to legacy customers is an incentive for what, Bill? If they cannot afford to pay the new body what are they supposed to do? Being unsatisfied with their body as is or selling their Leica gear and buying nikanopus instead? When i see how Leica behaves about the so-called 'perpetual' upgrade, the deferred R10 and the (presumably) overexpensive S2 i begin to wonder is the new slogan at Solms is now 'Not For You'...

 

Oh my gosh...."nikanopus" returns to the lexicon <G>

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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