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marknorton

Hot Air and Broken Promises

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Terry I tend to agree with mjh in that if I was to sell my M8 near the end of the original warranty and buy a M8.2 I would again have a camera that has a 2 year warranty (instead of a 1 year), all the updates/upgrades the .2 offers (insteada of the selective ones Leica has offered on the .1) and to top it off a NEW camera.

Depending on what I sold my M8 for the cost for a .2 would be in the 2800-3400 range which is about double the cost of all the upgrades.

But for me at this time I won't be doing any upgrades or buying anything new.

All I really want from Leica is 2 perfect working M8 Classics. See my other threads for the tail of the elusive properly working black M8.

 

Agreed! I have been following your challenges with NJ...

 

Best to all Terry.

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The problem Leica has is that the perpetual upgrade was not just an email to existing customers, they announced it to the press and those press releases can still be found on DPreview and other websites. Here is an extract:

 

“While other digital cameras quickly become outdated and are replaced by newer models, our new concept extends the value retention that stands for the Leica brand. Over time, we will gradually offer new product features and developments as upgrade options,“ declares Steven K. Lee, CEO of Leica Camera AG. “Our customers can therefore still invest in the photographic tools they need without worrying that they will miss out on improvements and technological developments along the way. We are confident that this is the right approach for ensuring customer satisfaction and allowing them to continue to sharpen their vision and refine their skills with the new digital LEICA M8. Our efforts will be focused constantly on giving them the best that the world of photography has to offer.“

 

Now reading that we could all argue over the exact meaning of what was written but it seems clear to me at least that in not offering the delayed shutter release as a paid for upgrade to the M8 they have not kept faith with their intent of February 2008.

 

Nobody asked or expected Leica to make such an announcement, they did it for marketing reasons, to boost flagging sales of the M8. I wonder how many thought what a great idea, I only need to get the camera and then the upgrades as they come along.

 

But now we have the M8.2 and the M8 cant be fully upgraded to current spec?

 

Jeff

 

Nowhere in that mail or elsewhere is claimed that the M8.u will ever equal M8.2

They are promising "upgrades" and they deliver upgrades. Perpetual means that you will always have the opportunity to add some new stuff to your camera and they did keep their promises so far. Ok you don't get the "soft" EV adjustment or the "soft" delayed shutter recocking, two functions that most of us believe (right or wrong) that can be easily implemented through some firmware reprogramming. On the other hand you get a camera with new LCD sapphire glass, a totally new shutter and new viewfinder frames. Also there is NO official response why they can go with the two "soft" functions. I still hope for those in the future...

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Leica's press release was about the M8 not the M8.2 which was not in existence at that time.

 

It says that M8 owners dont need to worry about missing out but in fact they are missing out. They have no opportunity to upgrade their M8s to the new standard established by the M8.2. And you cant include 'buying a new M8.2' because that is not upgrading the M8 that you already have.

 

Jeff

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Yes, one of my M8s is in bits and I have the circuit diagram in front of me and that's what I am doing. My plan is to do away with the C mode and make that delayed winding (haven't worked out what C stands for now - suggestions?) and there will be a small micro in there which makes the camera think it's talking to the shutter but it's actually talking to me and my micro controls the winding based on the setting of the switch and the position of the shutter release.

 

I'll also be doing an "Anatomy of the Leica M8 framelines" so that people can see how they work.

 

Mark,

I don't pretend to understand how you are doing it, but I greatly applaud your intention to keep the 1/8000th of a second AND the delayed shutter wind. The working new frame lines is also of great interest.

Teddy

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.....It says that M8 owners dont need to worry about missing out but in fact they are missing out.Jeff.....

 

 

I'm sorry but we really do need to have a reality check and keep a sense of perspective in this thread.

 

Mark was a little mischievous in his choice of title but I can see what he's trying to do. He's hoping to grab the attention of the Leica hierarchy, who we know dip into the forum from time to time, in order to force the desirability of further upgrade options onto their agenda.

Now there's no harm in trying, and if those options can be simply and affordably implemented then fine, that would be a good result. And if they can't be, for whatever reason, then at least some further information would be welcome.

 

But, we all know that the M8 upgrade programme was announced whilst SKL was at the helm, and we also know what happened to him during what must have been a very turbulent time for the company. Leica has moved on since then, there is a new chief executive and change has happened at Solms.

 

And, most importanty, let's remember that the image quality achieved from an M8 today is exactly the same as will be achieved from an M8.2 tomorrow.. In my opinion unless you have a particular need, as some do, for an ultra quiet camera for example, then there is absolutely no need to be concerned with upgrading or trading-up (unless of course you can afford it and simply want to, most of us live in the free world after all).

 

Let's also remember that Leica are offering an upgrade programme, and what other camera company is doing anything remotely similar, other than firmware upgrades, at the moment?

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Look at things from a marketing and sales point of view, and the staying alive of a company.

 

Yes they (who were they, was it the fired CEO ?) promised us endless updates, which is a promise that can never be hold sooner or later.

But from a marketing point of view it is not very wise. By creating new versions with marginal differences, that is what keeps a bussines running.

One of the best examples of that is with the Porsche 911 being slightly improved several times a year. And wasn't Porsche Consltancy the company that is advising Leica, yes they are.

 

So in the interest of us Leica users, to keep the Leica company alive, they have to create reasons for new buyers to step in the Leica train, or for existing users to sell their previous modell and buy the latest version.

It was already quite notably that revenue was going down before the M8.2, so I am anxious to see how revenue is at this very moment.

For me the introduction of the S2 is another stroke of marketing wisdom, but thats another subject.

 

So to my opinion, the biggest interest that we all have is that Leica stays alive. That we see things happening that fires our emotions, that's part of the game.

It is the best mix of both worlds that nobody else offers, i.e. by offering upgrading and by introducing new models that go one step further.

That's what marketing is all about, make us greedy and keep the company alive.

There are doing an admirable job and are alive and kicking.

 

Hans

 

P.S. All this should not stop us trying to find out why the M8u does not have a discrete mode. I'll be one of the first to change my camera, when I now how to acieve this.

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Well, Mark has a point.

I bought my M8 way before the mentioned "upgrade" mailing was sent out, so I was pleased and thought "how neat" when I received it.

If Leica doesn't make good on their announcement, that's something that I book under "marketing f...hickup" and move on - but what about people who actually believed that and hence bought an M8? Are there any at all?

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I don't know about anyone else but I buy a camera to use, actaully that is the only reason I buy anything (I'm not in any way a collector of anything).

If I didn't like the features offered on any type of product I'm think about buying I don't buy it. I never buy something thinking it can and will be upgraded to something I would like. That's like the starter Wife.

 

I bought both of my M8's well before there was any talk of any type of upgrade and I've been happy using them (NOT so happy about the problems I've had with Leica NJ service).

Now that they have included the SDHC and Auto ISO I'm even happier. Now if I could only have both of my M8's in my hands at the same time, working properly, for a extended period of time I'd be even more happier & happier.

But that last tidbit doesn't seem to be in the cards for me. Only time will tell.

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Leica's press release was about the M8 not the M8.2 which was not in existence at that time.

 

It says that M8 owners dont need to worry about missing out but in fact they are missing out. They have no opportunity to upgrade their M8s to the new standard established by the M8.2. And you cant include 'buying a new M8.2' because that is not upgrading the M8 that you already have.

 

Jeff

 

Oh come on!.... They are missing out a delayed shutter rewind and some soft EV???? Or that black on black Leica badge??? Makes me wonder how I can take pictures without these

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Guest rubengonsalves

Hello, I have my M8 since one year. I was thinking to do the upgrades, but now I will not do that until Leica will do what is right. I think this is a special case why it annoys people, because the shutter delay is so close tied with the shutter upgrade. They should put them together.

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the "soft" EV adjustment...that most of us believe (right or wrong) that can be easily implemented through some firmware reprogramming.

 

The new EV control system requires a display in the finder (to see how much comp. one is dialing in via the wheel). That display change likely requires more than firmware.

 

Cheers,

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Well, they can implement it through the main display as a half way around solution, or they can add it fully if you choose the new viewfinders...

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I think for me what it comes down to is that once again we are paying through the nose for the camera that should have been released day one. On top of first receiving one total lemon (returned) and the current one back for a month repair (and now needing to go back again for same repair), not to mention lock ups, the cost of filters, etc I think that Leica have pretty well bled their users (at least this one) over this camera.

 

IMO they released a half ass product (image quality great, design half thought through, build quality poor, service abysmal) and now we are paying for it. I think we are owed a complete upgrade.

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Oh come on!.... They are missing out a delayed shutter rewind and some soft EV???? Or that black on black Leica badge??? Makes me wonder how I can take pictures without these

 

Well Leica either chose to make those features (of which the delayed shutter rewind seems to be the most important) not available to M8 owners ie marketing decision going against the spirit of their press release or they cant technically do it. I wonder which it is?

 

Jeff

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Well Leica either chose to make those features (of which the delayed shutter rewind seems to be the most important) not available to M8 owners ie marketing decision going against the spirit of their press release or they cant technically do it. I wonder which it is?

 

Jeff

 

The answer to that question is in both cases a marketing decision. Either it is technically possible but they wanted to create an artificial difference, or they created a real difference so it is not possible.

 

Hans

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I think for me what it comes down to is that once again we are paying through the nose for the camera that should have been released day one. On top of first receiving one total lemon (returned) and the current one back for a month repair (and now needing to go back again for same repair), not to mention lock ups, the cost of filters, etc I think that Leica have pretty well bled their users (at least this one) over this camera.

 

IMO they released a half ass product (image quality great, design half thought through, build quality poor, service abysmal) and now we are paying for it. I think we are owed a complete upgrade.

 

It's a discretionary purchase. Nobody forced you to buy one. You exercised free will in your choice. Your life would have continued whether you had an M8 or not. Leica "owes" you nothing.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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It's a discretionary purchase. Nobody forced you to buy one. You exercised free will in your choice. Your life would have continued whether you had an M8 or not. Leica "owes" you nothing.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Thats a simplification. It is not possible for the buyer to know up front that that the product will have so many problems.

 

Jeff

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Thats a simplification. It is not possible for the buyer to know up front that that the product will have so many problems.

 

Jeff

 

Fair point, Jeff... for the first few early adopters. People were quick enough to post their problems here and elsewhere as soon as they arose. There are many who chose to buy well after that. If the M8 was that bad, Leica would no longer exist, because every example would have been returned. What irritates the hell out of me is the compensation-culture post - the one that says "Leica owes me..."

 

No.

 

Leica owes you nothing. You make a choice. You make a purchase. If it goes wrong you have consumer rights. End of story.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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It's a discretionary purchase. Nobody forced you to buy one. You exercised free will in your choice. Your life would have continued whether you had an M8 or not. Leica "owes" you nothing.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Right, Right again, one more time and yes with or without it I'd still be sitting at my computer today but probably not on the L Camera User forum.

 

Thats a simplification. It is not possible for the buyer to know up front that that the product will have so many problems.

 

Jeff

 

I knew all about the problems the camera had to start with when I layed my money down, if you didn't that is your fault. What I didn't know was how BAD Leica service can be.

To date I have had 2 problems with the M8, Other then the truely BAD tech service, one with each M8 I own.

Chrome, camera didn't turn on fully unless you hit the shutter release. That happened 1+ year after I got it.

Black, replacement camera had a sensor problem.

BAD service.

Chrome, when I got the camera back from service for the switch problem the vertical alignmnet was off by inches.

Black, after sending in the original twice for a vertical alignment problem they replaced the camera. Replacement camera HAD perfect vertical alignment but the sensor was bad. Sent in in for the sensor problem and it comes back with the vertical alignment OFF.

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Fair point, Jeff... for the first few early adopters. People were quick enough to post their problems here and elsewhere as soon as they arose. There are many who chose to buy well after that. If the M8 was that bad, Leica would no longer exist, because every example would have been returned. What irritates the hell out of me is the compensation-culture post - the one that says "Leica owes me..."

 

No.

 

Leica owes you nothing. You make a choice. You make a purchase. If it goes wrong you have consumer rights. End of story.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Bill Leica does owe me. They owe me to do correct service on the camera. Do they owe me or anyone anything else, NO.

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