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chris_livsey

Shutter noise/quietness

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but the new framelines are nice to have as well

 

although in my book, 'nice to have' is rather different from 'happy to pay through the nose for'!

 

I noticed that updating the VF in early M7s for the later glare free version, or installing an MP VF in an M6 has, in the past, been charged at 300 Euro, but now it is part of upgrading your M8 it costs twice as much....

 

I will be upgrading my M8 at some time, on the one hand pleased that I can, on the other hand gritting my teeth that I have to pay through the nose again to get what I should have had 18 months ago.

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But the upgrade also include a 1 year extended or new warranty, depending on if your camera is still in warranty or not.

I don't think that was true for the other film cameras.

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But the upgrade also include a 1 year extended or new warranty, depending on if your camera is still in warranty or not.

I don't think that was true for the other film cameras.

 

fair point that the upgrade includes additonal warranty.

But do you think 1 years warranty is worth 300 Eur? arent Leica supposed to make dependable cameras? 'built as it life depended on its performance' or so they themselves say.

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Pardon my ignorance of camera mechanics, but why does the Leica shutter require this noisy re-cocking to begin with? In the film days of course we had to wind the film and I guess film cameras used that action to cock the shutter as well. But now DSLRs don't have a re-cocking sound that comes after the mirror/shutter noise. What is the technical difference in how these shutters operate, and why don't Leica switch over? While the initial shutter sound might be quieter with whatever Leica is now doing, the inevitable shutter-cocking sounds (delayed or not, it must happen eventually) is noisy enough to more than make up for the initial advantage.

 

Just curious...

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I don't know if anyone has followed any of the rapid technological developments on the new ultra Hi-Def vid cameras at red.com .

I mention this because of their policy on updating cameras.

You can buy a Red one (4K sensor) happy in the knowledge that as soon as Red Epic (5K sensor) has finished development, they will take your red one back at full price. A snip at $17,500 and I do mean a snip as the competition is several times more expensive for an inferior product.

 

Incidentally the thread on their forum scarletuser.com has over 1500 replies & 310,000 views !!!!!

Oh and the owner/entrepreneur/developer posts directly to forum members on a daily basis.

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Guest DuquesneG
you are having a laugh!?

BS = marketing = BS = marketing blah blah

Leica are no different, no better, no worse than anyone else in that respect IMHO

 

Refusing to accept the status quo is the essence of being innovative. If a product is truly great, it should not require lies and exaggeration to sell it. But in Leica's specific case I think there is another problem, which is that there is a significant minority--if it isn't in fact a majority--of customers who are very well-informed. Much more so, it would seem, than the people in the marketing department and customer service, and can see right through the BS, and it's insulting and infuriating. If you can't make your BS slick enough to go over on your customers, you either ought to hire some better BSers or else cut the BS entirely. IMHO of course.

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I don't know if anyone has followed any of the rapid technological developments on the new ultra Hi-Def vid cameras at red.com .

 

Red.com website carries this warning!

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In my opinion, the M8.2 is what M8 should be launched on day 1 in late 2006.

 

So I think it is a shame Leica do not support a FULL UPGRADE (include the delayed

re-cock) for original M8. IMHO, at least they should give us a price tag for that.

The current so call reason that the delayed re-cock cannot be implement into the

original M8s are purely unconceivable and unacceptable IMHO.

 

Do hope that Leitz can reconsider to give us a price for a custom FULL upgrade.

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Pardon my ignorance of camera mechanics, but why does the Leica shutter require this noisy re-cocking to begin with? In the film days of course we had to wind the film and I guess film cameras used that action to cock the shutter as well. But now DSLRs don't have a re-cocking sound that comes after the mirror/shutter noise. What is the technical difference in how these shutters operate, and why don't Leica switch over? While the initial shutter sound might be quieter with whatever Leica is now doing, the inevitable shutter-cocking sounds (delayed or not, it must happen eventually) is noisy enough to more than make up for the initial advantage.

 

Just curious...

 

I've wondered this too. I mentioned on another thread how I felt my D3 is actually quieter - well it's not, but it is SHORTER. One loud click instead of a slightly quieter metallic clack (clunk?) and then a following whirring noise (the M8).

 

Why not just the click like the Nikon? I actually find the one loud click to be less distracting (to me at least!

) than the clunk/whir.

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Unfortunately, this is just a test camera. If I want the delayed shutter cocking and the EV correction control (which I also like) I'm going to need to buy an M8.2 myself.

 

Sean Read, this is just the sort of thing that Leica want to hear, and It is playing right into their hands. These improvements should be made available as upgrades to the original M8s if the owners wish to have them. The M8-2 needn't even have been made at all, as these improvements represent what the original M8 should have been and I believe would have been had Leica not had to rush out their digital rangefinder to help them financially before it was really ready. Many trusted Leica and purchased this expensive camera built to last a lifetime even if the developing technology would not, and would moved on. We were therefore told subsequently that the M8 would be made future proof due to Leica's unique update programme. This programme was introduced earlier this year, and only a few months later several improvements, which Leica picked up on from working photographers (and maybe even from members of this forum) are available, but not all, unless another 'built to last a lifetime' camera is purchased.

Actually, I have a feeling that the discreet mode of the shutter, and also the improved EV correction control might be made available for M8 users, eventually, especially if enough public disquiet is made towards Leica to underline the error of their ways.

 

...Sorry, but we've been conned, had.

 

This is correct.

 

Jeffrey.

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Sean Read, this is just the sort of thing that Leica want to hear, and It is playing right into their hands.

 

Jeffrey.

 

Jeffrey,

 

I'm not playing into anyone's hands. I'm giving my honest impressions of the camera, as usual. What Leica decides to offer, or not offer, as an upgrade is not for me to decide. My job is to describe.

 

I'm an M8 owner myself and it would probably be less expensive for me to upgrade my camera (assuming all the features were available). But I'm certainly not going to color my impressions of the M8.2 simply because I'd like a less expensive way to get to those features.

 

By all means, lobby Leica to make the other features available as upgrades. As a customer, it is natural that you would do so. I also have encouraged Leica to make certain changes/improvements over the past few years but that advocacy is not my primary role as a reviewer.

 

And, as a photographer, I plan to sell my M8 this year and buy an M8.2. That decision is based on what's best for me, not what's best for Leica.

 

BTW, what have people's impressions been of the optional Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc. hardware upgrades for existing models? Many of us like what Leica is trying to do, we'd just like them to go further with it. So, again, let them know.

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Guest DuquesneG

Actually, I have a feeling that the discreet mode of the shutter, and also the improved EV correction control might be made available for M8 users, eventually, especially if enough public disquiet is made towards Leica to underline the error of their ways.

 

The Catch-22 is that, only if people refuse to bow to the coercion to ante up for the M8.2 will it prompt them to add those items to the upgrade program...but by the same token, if the M8.2 isn't selling, I doubt that they will want to add incentive for people to upgrade rather than buy one. But I hope they do. Once again Leica will end up doing damage control rather than thinking it through and doing the right thing from the start. Just think of how pissed off everyone will be who already has their upgrades done and paid-for, if by let's say next April Leica decides to make those other items available, and it requires sending the cameras back for some hardware change. Leica will probably have to at least eat the cost of disassembly and reassembly, if not round-trip shipping. Always harder and more expensive to do things in hindsight than foresight.

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I've been using my M8-2 for a few days and for me the shutter alone is worth the price of the camera.

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By mid 2009, when sales figures for M8.2 come in, it will be obvious that the camera seriously undersells its projections. By the end of that year Leica will drop the then delayed S2--Canon will have a FF 35MP model on the market at a fraction of the cost.

Olympus wil have a pro 22MP micro 4/3 happily accepting Leica lenses . In 2010 when Leica folds, I'll be upgrading my Canon 5Dmark2 to the 35MP mark3. My Leica lenses will be used on the Olympus and my Mechanical Perfection M.

The M8 will be given to my kids to learn photography (with cheap Jupiter lenses) . I will just manage to get the discreet shutter upgrade for it with the last Leica firmware upgrade.

For free.

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The Catch-22 is that, only if people refuse to bow to the coercion to ante up for the M8.2 will it prompt them to add those items to the upgrade program...but by the same token, if the M8.2 isn't selling, I doubt that they will want to add incentive for people to upgrade rather than buy one. But I hope they do. Once again Leica will end up doing damage control rather than thinking it through and doing the right thing from the start. Just think of how pissed off everyone will be who already has their upgrades done and paid-for, if by let's say next April Leica decides to make those other items available, and it requires sending the cameras back for some hardware change. Leica will probably have to at least eat the cost of disassembly and reassembly, if not round-trip shipping. Always harder and more expensive to do things in hindsight than foresight.

 

I'm not sure how offering a new product can be considered coercion. As always, we're free to buy or not buy. Leica is the only small format digital camera company, to my knowledge, that is offering any kind of hardware upgrades at all. There's no such thing for a 5D or a D300, etc.

 

As I've written before, I'd like to see Leica offer all of the upgrades as M8 options. That would be great. On the other hand, I'm glad to see them offering an upgrade program at all - it's quite unusual.

 

We're in control of our own wallets. Leica is just a manufacturer. The choice to buy or not buy is ours.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Jeffrey,

 

I'm not playing into anyone's hands. I'm giving my honest impressions of the camera, as usual. What Leica decides to offer, or not offer, as an upgrade is not for me to decide. My job is to describe.

 

I'm an M8 owner myself and it would probably be less expensive for me to upgrade my camera (assuming all the features were available). But I'm certainly not going to color my impressions of the M8.2 simply because I'd like a less expensive way to get to those features.

 

By all means, lobby Leica to make the other features available as upgrades. As a customer, it is natural that you would do so. I also have encouraged Leica to make certain changes/improvements over the past few years but that advocacy is not my primary role as a reviewer.

 

And, as a photographer, I plan to sell my M8 this year and buy an M8.2. That decision is based on what's best for me, not what's best for Leica.

 

BTW, what have people's impressions been of the optional Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc. hardware upgrades for existing models? Many of us like what Leica is trying to do, we'd just like them to go further with it. So, again, let them know.

 

 

Sean, I'm not doubting, nor criticising your honest impressions, nor am I suggesting that you decide Leica's upgrade path. Your describing of equipment is often very useful. I'm just mentioning that all those who go ahead and buy the M8-2 solely because of these improvements, will be exactly what Leica hopes for. It's obvious, It's what they want. Unless there are unique differences that preclude updating the M8 to M8-2 specifications, this camera really shouldn't have been made; it should have been what an updated M8 could become if wanted. It's just an updated M8 with black paint. Having said this, I do understand that those working photographers who need it now, are willing to pay, or those who cannot resist temptation, will go ahead and get one.

The difference in Canon, Nikon, Olympus cameras when compared to Leica's is that very few of these cameras from the 1950s or 1960s were still being used (professionally) before digital took over, whereas Leicas were. Now that the digital M is available, Leica are still trying to retain their 'camera for life' philosophy, but perhaps this aspect of what made Leica unique, and what they are/were famous for, cannot be true anymore, in this digital age?

 

Jeffrey.

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Now that the digital M is available, Leica are still trying to retain their 'camera for life' philosophy, but perhaps this aspect of what made Leica unique, and what they are/were famous for, cannot be true anymore, in this digital age?

 

Jeffrey.

 

That's the point. It's cheaper overall to manufacture some new silicon and put it into a new box, than ship the old box, exchange the silicon, ship it back. What's the least important part of a modular camera: the lens, the box or the sensor back?

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I'm just mentioning that all those who go ahead and buy the M8-2 solely because of these improvements, will be exactly what Leica hopes for. It's obvious, It's what they want. Unless there are unique differences that preclude updating the M8 to M8-2 specifications, this camera really shouldn't have been made; it should have been what an updated M8 could become if wanted. It's just an updated M8 with black paint. Having said this, I do understand that those working photographers who need it now, are willing to pay, or those who cannot resist temptation, will go ahead and get one.

The difference in Canon, Nikon, Olympus cameras when compared to Leica's is that very few of these cameras from the 1950s or 1960s were still being used (professionally) before digital took over, whereas Leicas were. Now that the digital M is available, Leica are still trying to retain their 'camera for life' philosophy, but perhaps this aspect of what made Leica unique, and what they are/were famous for, cannot be true anymore, in this digital age?

 

Jeffrey.

 

I think that every manufacturer hopes for sales when they introduce a new and/or improved product. That's just business. So, of course, one might naturally assume that Leica wants people to buy this new camera because of the improvements. I imagine that they also hope to earn money from the upgrade charges.

 

I try to buy what I need, when I need it, so long as I can afford it. The changes in the M8.2 may not be very important to some people and that's great because they save money. For me, its worth the money.

 

I think that there will be *a degree* to which a digital M camera can be upgradeable. I think hoping for a digital camera that can be updated (to contemporary specs at any given time) throughout one's lifetime might be ambitious. On the other hand, as I wrote about in "Resisting Obsolescence", we don't necessarily need to always have the latest camera in order to do good work (for pay or not).

 

Could strong pictures be made with the current M8 in 2018? I don't see why not.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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A comment on marketing and misinformation.

 

At the Las Vegas show last year the head of Nikon was interviewed and asked about full frame models in the future. He replied, I assume with a straight face, that Nikon studied the subject of full frame and are convinced that there is no advantage to full frame over the DX format, so they have no intention of building and selling a full frame camera. Now in 2008 we have the full frame D3 and D700. How can you tell when marketing is lying? Their lips are moving.

 

Why do you expect Leica to be any different from any other company that wants to move their current inventory off the shelf without telegraphing their punches? I am a long time Nikon user. At least Leica does have an upgrade program which is more than I can say for Nikon or any other manufacturer that makes your new model irretrievably obsolete every 6 months. I have my M8 and I love it. The shutter may be noisier that any of the film M models, but it is a lot quieter than any SLR on the market, digital or not.

 

It sounds like Leica is being more responsive to their customer base than any of the other camera makers in providing, for a stiff price, but providing it nonetheless, a quiet shutter upgrade and other upgrade goodies.

 

As for me, I am not a stealth photographer, so a little noise is a cheap price to pay for such a wonderful camera, although I may eventually go for some of the upgrades.

 

Jim Evidon

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At least Leica does have an upgrade program which is more than I can say for Nikon or any other manufacturer...

Jim Evidon

 

That's a point I've tried to make as well. Now, to be sure, we can certainly ask Leica to expand this program, offer other options, etc. but I find it encouraging that they make hardware upgrades available at all. Right now, they're in a singular position for having made that commitment.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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