jaapv Posted September 23, 2008 Share #61 Posted September 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Also,by gross comparing the dpreview photos, that eyepiece seems to be something like 2cm in diameter. I can only guess to the FoV of that thing... Or what tricks they used to fit the mirror into that compact body. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Overall Disappointing photkinia for Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erl Posted September 23, 2008 Share #62 Posted September 23, 2008 Imants, I never gave it a thought either, until the M8 came along. Retrospectively, I discovered the RD1 also suffers, but not as much. It does suffer in daylight as well. Once aware of it, it can be alarming. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 23, 2008 Share #63 Posted September 23, 2008 I was also surprised when I saw the use of OLEDs... Seems they are not THAT conservative after all, or Dr.K decided to break some molds Anyway, Jaap, just envision the introduction of S2 as the vehicle for a better M8 for you us all not (jumping there) Imagine the possibilities when people stop whine for a FF sensor Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_reinierv Posted September 23, 2008 Share #64 Posted September 23, 2008 whatever you think of the introduced products and the use for you The amount of products introduced is amazing for a small company like Leica. The development department must have been making lots of overtime to get this all done, if it is true that it is all in-house development. But why would they design AF from the ground-up, with expertise on the subject sofar? That would be so riskfull and there may be many hidden errors that will come up when people start seriously using it. More likely panasonic or others had something to do with it. Maybe they also combined effort, e.g. the design for a S2 lens proves to be equal to a new M lens. That would be clever... Also design such a lot of products must be a real burden on Leica's financial situation, I guess they need to make profits on these products pretty quickly, just a hunge (would also explain the idiotic repair price quote for my M8 ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted September 23, 2008 Share #65 Posted September 23, 2008 Or what tricks they used to fit the mirror into that compact body. One thing that might help with reducing the dimensions of the camera body is that Leica are masters at making the mechanical mirror linkage pull the mirror back and up rather than just swinging it up. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted September 23, 2008 Share #66 Posted September 23, 2008 Well a Sigma DP2 came........... it is equipped with a 24.2mm F2.8 lens, equivalent to 41mm on a 35mm SLR camera A digital Minilux and Contax T3 successor. Will buy it and it will make a great pair with the DP1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamriman Posted September 23, 2008 Share #67 Posted September 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Barjohn? I think at this point it should be "by john". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted September 23, 2008 Share #68 Posted September 23, 2008 I voiced critique recently about Leica's M8 upgrading offers, the 8.2 and its pricing. Solms recent product announcements, accompanied buy the best M8 firmware upgrade yet, though, are nothing but impressive! They have more than demonstrated to have the ability and willingness to stay at the top of the game. What their development team has accomplished should give us confidence that they will have more up their sleeves, be it a FF M, a DSLR or a "CL successor". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 23, 2008 Share #69 Posted September 23, 2008 I seem to remember later "V" Hasselblads introduced a sliding/swinging mirror. I think they called it the 'GLIDE system. I also (think) I remember a Leica S2 many many moons ago. It was an early digital (first?) camera. No VF and I think it took Hasselblad lenses. Was there also an S1, or am I dreaming? Probably. If I search hard enough through my archives (shudder ) I reckon I could come up with an old advert for it. Looked not unlike a cross between a Linhof and a Mamiya Press (I think it was called). Oh well. Memories still fade faster than negatives. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 23, 2008 Share #70 Posted September 23, 2008 Erl, that was the S1 scanning camera. It could take a variety of lenses, including M and R. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 23, 2008 Share #71 Posted September 23, 2008 I seem to remember later "V" Hasselblads introduced a sliding/swinging mirror. I think they called it the 'GLIDE system. I also (think) I remember a Leica S2 many many moons ago. It was an early digital (first?) camera. No VF and I think it took Hasselblad lenses. Was there also an S1, or am I dreaming? Probably. If I search hard enough through my archives (shudder ) I reckon I could come up with an old advert for it. Looked not unlike a cross between a Linhof and a Mamiya Press (I think it was called). Oh well. Memories still fade faster than negatives. Yes - the S1 has been shown a number of times in the forums last week - ugly - yes - but an amazing camera back then. There was no Leica S2 yet - until now. The S1 took just about every lens on the market, including Hasselblad, Leica R, Rodenstock and I believe even Leica M.. Leica invented the Kurbeschleife system of mirror pull-lift, long before Hasselblad used it. The R3 for instance had it, and I think the SL2 as well.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndjambrose Posted September 23, 2008 Share #72 Posted September 23, 2008 An M8.2..for $6,295 Yawn:confused: An S2 for a Bazillion Bucks...Who Cares?? Delivery Summer 2009 A new Noctilux for $11K...really:( f A new PanaLieca for twice the cost of the Pany... Where are the bread and butter products that will keep the company alive by meeting its overhead? I guess Dr. Kaufman has plenty of money to play with his hobby until he gets bored with it and having it eat his money. Where is a camera that could excite the photographer that isn't a collector? I'm not poor making over $200K per year but I wouldn't consider any of these cameras. I hope Nikon offers a digital range finder. Leica will not survive in the long run with this strategy in my opinion. That is too sad. God grief. I hope you don't have a job where you're in charge of anything important. You don't seem to have much idea about shareholder value, strategic planning or market positioning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamriman Posted September 23, 2008 Share #73 Posted September 23, 2008 God grief. I hope you don't have a job where you're in charge of anything important. You don't seem to have much idea about shareholder value, strategic planning or market positioning. What do you expect for over 2K a year? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DuquesneG Posted September 23, 2008 Share #74 Posted September 23, 2008 The Photokina announcements this year weren't the slightest bit disappointing to me. I'm a happy owner/user of 2 M8s, so the fact the M8.2 is the identical camera in terms of IQ, and in fact comes with standard framelines that are a downgrade from my perspective, means I have no reason to dip into my piggybank at this time. The new lenses come with such laughably insane prices that I might as well consider them not to exist...put them straight out of my mind. The 24/3.8 has a more reasonable price, but I have a 24/2.8-ASPH...half a stop faster and it cost me less than the 3.8! I'm not an R-system user, so I am not disappointed that Leica opted to invent a new niche and chase after hypothetical customers, meanwhile making me have to scavenge a DMR from the second-hand market and wait two more years for an R10. I'm not with Panasonic point-n-shoots, which I found to underperform other brands especially at the higher ISOs, and re-branding them as Leicas doesn't seduce me. So, no disappointment from Leica's booth at Photokina this time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted September 23, 2008 Share #75 Posted September 23, 2008 The initial premise of this thread is, at the point of it's posting, Photokina is a yawn with respect to Leica announcements. My gut instinct is to want to ridicule Barjohn for banging on about Leica prices when [if what he posts is truthful] he likely has money in his pocket beyond any photographer I know. I actually agree with some of his criticisms of Leica later in the thread, but I can't figure out why the pricing is such an issue for him; though I know why it is an issue for myself of course. Regardless of quibbles I have about the S2, on the face of it the camera looks a very interesting development in respect of it's positioning relative to high end digital backs, and flagship DSLRs from the usual suspects. However, I live in a major UK city and I really doubt that any photographer here could afford the S2, which leads me to wonder how many would likely be sold in the UK in a year. Photography in the UK is in a major recession, yet we are supposed to be the 3rd or 4th richest economy in the world. The mood in this forum is that this camera will be lapped up by 'pros', which indeed it would be if 'professional' photography was thriving as a Profession rather than limping along as barely a Trade. Would I love this camera for it's expected file quality? You bet, but the truth is that I don't know any photographer [and I know several] who can afford the tools of their trade at Nikon and Canon prices, yet alone Leica's. My gut feeling is that, in the main, the S2 might be an aspirational camera for 'professionals' but few will get near buying. If the M8 was a necessary move for Leica, then the S2 appears to be a courageous one and of course I wish it success. But whilst logically I know there are rich gits out there, I am yet to meet someone prepared to carry around multiple thousands of £s worth of digital gear that's not earning it's keep. I'm rambling and struggling, because I know who this amazing camera is aimed at [i'm one of them, in terms of my work], but I can't actually figure out who will actually buy. I think I need a little lie-down. A lottery win would be better. ................ Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted September 23, 2008 Share #76 Posted September 23, 2008 .......but I can't actually figure out who will actually buy. I think I need a little lie-down. A lottery win would be better. ................ Chris I think the top 1% of the profession that is recession proof. I don't think Leica is going to be churning the S2s out at a mad pace. I will need to lie down, too. I don't buy lottery. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndjambrose Posted September 23, 2008 Share #77 Posted September 23, 2008 ... I don't know any photographer [and I know several] who can afford the tools of their trade at Nikon and Canon prices, yet alone Leica's. My gut feeling is that, in the main, the S2 might be an aspirational camera for 'professionals' but few will get near buying.... ...I can't actually figure out who will actually buy.... Some observations. Firstly it's not always about buying. It's about market positioning. Having a flagship product is a necessary tool for investment and financing expansion and R&D programs. Barjohn and others who think you can turn around a company simply by selling units are missing the point - it takes far too long. The really clever move is to demonstrate an entry point in a part of the market where you have no penetration, support it with a new technology entry that you can expand, and then use both to secure immediate finance for longer-term programs. Leica is doing exactly this. Secondly, pros don't buy in the same way you do. They lease equipment on long-term plans, or by the day from hire centres. Owning a lot of equipment is often wasted cash flow. But hire centres and finance companies do buy -- and in bulk. That's the market Hasselblad dominates, and the market that Leica are targeting with their Phase One agreement. And lastly, for those pros who do buy instead of lease, if they make enough of an operating profit, they can write off certain losses assets against tax liability. This includes depreciation of camera gear, writing them down to effective zero cost over two or three years. The point that a lot of people are struggling with is the idea of someone putting their hand in their pocket and pulling out 20,000 Euros. But that would hardly ever be the case; consumers may buy like that, but the professional market works differently and Leica doesn't need to depend on dentists, or anyone else with disposable income. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share #78 Posted September 23, 2008 Chris, I mentioned prices for precisely the reasons in your posts. I suspect there are very few working photographers that will be able to justify this camera at the $20K-$30K price range (plus add lenses) for an ROI. I would rather have seen Leica come out with something that expanded the market and brought in fresh new blood. Finally, ask yourself exactly how much revenue will the S2 and its lenses bring in to Leica in its FY08-09 year? How much will the R10 bring in in FY09-10? The same company that doesn't want to tell you what is coming next month is now telling you what will be coming a year from now. This doesn't raise any suspicions? Is this the same company that announced an upgrade back in February or March for orders in May for delivery in July that now may be delivered in October? In the electronics world technology changes every 6 months. Intel, with which I am very familiar, obsoletes their products on a 6 month time scale. A year from now the technology will have advanced significantly. If they had had the camera and lenses ready for shipment within 30 days it would have been a more exciting announcement in that it would have shown me that they had real digital technology capability in house that they had not demonstrated in the past. However, if it will take them a year to go into production then what was shown is really vaporware and only shows what they hope to be able to deliver in the future not what they can deliver now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 23, 2008 Share #79 Posted September 23, 2008 Ummm. Dentists are professionals too you know, Neil, and buy gear exactly as you describe, albeit not private cameras. Guess what I use for medical photography and gets written off... A Leica product I can assure you Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted September 23, 2008 Share #80 Posted September 23, 2008 Kent10D, I couldn't agree with you more. However with the exception of a few standout photographers like Sean Reid, Bill Parsons, Guy Manusco, I haven't seen that much to be excited about. I am in it for pure personal pleasure so I don't include myself. So, you don't like most of our photography, you are grossly disappointed in the Leica products currently available, and you have a rather obvious contempt for us Leica "fan boys." So.......why the hell are you lurking around here? Perhaps the pure pleasure you allude to comes from starting threads like this which have no intent other that to inflame others and start arguments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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