Overall Disappointing photkinia for Leica

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Well the S system does bring leica to a new level for pro's and hobbyist that went to jump up. Been getting bits and pieces all day but so far i like what i am reading. The big part that actually got me out of my seat was the alliance with Phase One. This part was just downright freaking brilliant on all counts. Folks need to know how experienced they truly are in MF digital circles. The are considered one of the absolute best in this area . Between Firmware , software and there MF sensor technology with Kodak is beyond approach. Leica teaming up with them is extremely smart and if they have Phase One dealers handle the distribution of it even better. There service and repair service is amazingly good. I have a Phase body and back today and i am extremely impressed in this area alone. This has been as we know Leica's area of disappointment is service with the M8 and if they hand this off to Phase one than it is again a great idea to team with them. Today i can get a back by next morning at 10 am. if the stuff hits the fan , so this area being very important to Pro's can be very helpfull. The fact it has leaf shutters lenses and focal shutter camera like the Phase One systems makes it again a nice combo for wedding, fashion and commercial shooters. What needs to come out of this for the MF shooter of today like myself is the increase in speed of the camera itself. Right now I am at 1.5 seconds before i can hit the next frame.

 

The next area of concern today is shutter lag. Classic example shooting golf the other day i had to shoot at the start of the downswing to get the contact shot. This needs improvement. Other area's is ISO speed we need a clean ISO 1600 and I mean clean. Larger 3 inch display is also needed. If this leica S system can go after these area's of MF shooters concerns in this system than they are really doing us a large favor and bringing a real asset to our world. This is not about more MPX , my 22 mpx back will blow almost anything away. That is not the concern but the functionality that we lost going from DSLR to MF, we need to bring that speed into our area back. Also huge plus here is the fact they will have some T/S lenses as well as leaf lenses this also is a area that is lacking in MF. Now this is considered a bridge camera between DSLR and medium format but if the sped and i will repeat this again if the speed of this camera is reasonable close to the DSLR than watch these fly off the shelf.

 

I do say that with reservation though. leica needs to deliver a sound product , sorry no bullshit this time, your on my dollar and it needs to produce all the time. I say that with love in my heart for Leica but also with a strong you better get it right attitude. This is a lot of money to toss around and no one is going to play with my money if i go this direction. My Phase one back today is a freaking tank , they even run cars over it. If you want folks to jump up than they need to do it right and also price it correctly. This part is going to be very critical to it's success maybe more than any of there products. You have Sinar, Phase , Hassy and leaf out there already knocking prices down to drive business and revenue.

 

if I sound a little critical than your right this is expensive and the move up in this area is not to be taken lightly by any means. if Leica wants to get into this area. My points are something that should be heard loudly there not just coming from me but the MF market and shooters. If they deliver the speed and the quality of product. Than it should be a success in many ways.

 

I am still waiting like many for more details but so far i think this is a great thing for Leica be it you need it or not the technology of the S will lead to a trickle down effect to other Leica systems.

[marknorton]

The scale of new products is breathtaking after years of us getting one new lens a year, if we were lucky. They do make the M8 a little tired though.

 

I'm going to be there in about 5 hours, can't wait. I expect the Leica area will be mobbed.

 

That said, the pictures look more like an engineering model than a working camera, especially the back; I think they will have their work cut out to deliver; for the development team, Photokina is just the end of the beginning of the project.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[erl]

 

Nah I still reckon the M8 is a disappointment as needing the filters and it's all too frequent holidaying in Germany. That's why the Epson suits me, I can shove on old screw lenses with a adapter and just shoot(800-1600) and PP.

 

Yea Leica are missing a good solid no frills rangefinder to sell, but I ain't as I have the epson:)

 

 

 

 

.......and as for the Panaleicapocketfullofnoise..

 

Hopefully one of my over enthusiastic spare cash students will buy a S2 and I get to play with it

 

C'mon Imants, don't walk away from your positive post! It makes us all sit up and start.......

 

BTW, how do you avoid the magenta (Leica ) cast on your Epson? Mine suffers, although not as bad as the M8, unless I leave the IR cut filters on, which I do.

[PeterP]

Sorry not in the least bit interested . Leica should have concentrated on its bread and butter - rangefinder cameras , 3rd party lenses (for Panasonics) . Leica has been a non participant in the DSLR market , what is the point if entering it now . What is the point of entering the MF market , actually it is not entering - it is expressing an intent to enter , with a camera and lenses 6-12 months away.

Poor showing on the 8.2 (these are features that should have been in the original 8) . Plus a price increase !!!

Over hyped pricing !

Seems more like vanity cameras than pro equipment . Just keep in mind Canon right now has a 50mp waiting in the wings , and what will they have by the time the S2 is finally released .

 

Simply just underwhelmed by Leica

 

PeterP

 

ps. Still like my M8 - but it seems it will be a long long time before I replace it with another m. Looking forward to my new 5DmkII however.

[sdai]

That said, the pictures look more like an engineering model than a working camera, especially the back; I think they will have their work cut out to deliver; for the development team, Photokina is just the end of the beginning of the project.

 

David Farkas said they're working cameras and he actually has his hands on it.

[mtomalty]

"Phase One and Leica Form Strategic Alliance

The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels. This promises the quality and sophistication of Leica with the engineering prowess and medium-format experience of Phase One."

 

 

The above quote was made by Chris Lawry,one of the top Phase distributors in the U.S.

over on the Lum Landscape forum earlier today.

 

I can't imagine all the current Leica dealers,worldwide,are thrilled about the proposition

of not being able to sell the S2 when it becomes available

 

Mark

[badpets]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

i believe we can get more out of a heated discussion.

 

John,

 

You should retitle your post, "Overall Disappointing Photokina for Barjohn". Clearly the company didn't roll out the gear you feel you're entitled to. I'd suggest using some of that $200K a year (who the hell feels compelled to boast like that?) to schedule a sit down with Mr. Kaufman, with whom you can talk about your fancy cars and your extensive business expertise, both of which you've referenced numerous times in your previous posts. Maybe you can convince him to release a camera which allows you to tell everyone that you own a Leica which you can demonstrate is completely capable of Elph-worthy photography.

 

Sorry, John, if this comes off as harsh, but you went from mildly annoying to pompous troll status in my book with this last post of yours. Go find a camera company you like, will you?

 

And in the meantime, stick to bluetooth headsets.

[badpets]

john, if i didn't misinterpret your statement, are you saying that people who buy leica are not smart enough here? or maybe you didn't mean to say that?

 

... because I don't think the value is there and smart people don't throw their money away just for the prestige of a red or black dot. Apparently prestige is the most important thing to you. That is ok, I won't fault you for that but don't fault me because it isn't for me.

[biglouis]

Yes, but I was hoping for a CL like digital. Something using a new better sensor and technology. For example taking the micro 4/3rds but making a range finder with it. Priced under $2K. I think the M8 will not survive except for the collectors hence I sold mine. Something more modern with high quality lenses is another story provided they were not priced through the stratosphere.

 

John

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but which is more important - the lenses or the capture device? Imho, the capture device is a commodity, they all use similar sensors and processing streams and above 6MP are you really going to see a difference? It is the lenses that are unique. The M8 is an expensive commodity but it is the only digital platform on which you can mount M-lenses. Can you get a higher quality lens (in this price bracket and format) than a Lux 35-asph?

 

LouisB

[sdai]

I can't imagine all the current Leica dealers,worldwide,are thrilled about the proposition

of not being able to sell the S2 when it becomes available

 

Some Phase dealers carries Leica as well, such as the one in my area ... I'm sure they're gonna have these hands on workshops. Just to play with it is plenty of fun.

[barjohn]

John

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but which is more important - the lenses or the capture device? Imho, the capture device is a commodity, they all use similar sensors and processing streams and above 6MP are you really going to see a difference? It is the lenses that are unique. The M8 is an expensive commodity but it is the only digital platform on which you can mount M-lenses. Can you get a higher quality lens (in this price bracket and format) than a Lux 35-asph?

 

LouisB

 

LuisB, I won't argue with you about the lenses as I too think they are the best available. Whether there is enough difference between them and the Zeiss lenses that are more reasonably priced becomes a matter of personal preference but without a careful side-by-side comparison like Sean Reid does most people would be hard pressed to tell which photo was taken with which lens.

 

The body is important for three reasons. First, most of us are looking for small size that we can carry easily. This rules out most DSLRs. Second we want outstanding IQ up to ISO 6400 or better from that small body. Finally, we want a range finder type of framing/viewing experience. The M8 comes close but I think its size and weight with the fast lenses is too large and heavy and it lacks the high ISO performance. As I stated some time back in an earlier post it was OK with me if they went to a different lens system to achieve the goals I thought were important. I know this is an anathema to M8 owners heavily invested in M lenses but new photographers would not have that problem and if priced at a lower price point would go a long way to give Leica the entry level vehicle it needed. Of course, it would struggle with the M8 crowd because they would feel left behind if the new smaller body had better IQ than the M8 unless Leica could offer a sensor upgrade, a less likely proposition.

[diogenis]

Yes, but I was hoping for a CL like digital. Something using a new better sensor and technology. For example taking the micro 4/3rds but making a range finder with it. Priced under $2K. I think the M8 will not survive except for the collectors hence I sold mine. Something more modern with high quality lenses is another story provided they were not priced through the stratosphere.

 

John,

Forget all about what you wanted or expected or expecting to see in that PMA. Look again what you have in hand and in announcements right now:

An updated M8 with the same form factor we all love for DRFs

a bunch of great lenses that Canikon only dreams about

An announced MF camera inside the body of a SLR that will run circles around CaNikon

An announced alliance with Ph1

And continuing the Alliance with Panasonic.

All these indicate an extrovert company, which almost guarantee a bright future ahead for me. If the Japanese can't think out of the box by sticking to those FF sensors of theirs, I don't think they can easily win this.

You got a company that capitalizes in small and compact and light, with great sensors and the absolute best lenses... seems like a great move. Only problem really is, thats S2 is still a vaporware, therefore not yet competes anything really.But one can only imagine the buzzing sounds coming out from CAnikon's labs from its people

[barjohn]

First, the M8.2 is not much in my opinion. A sapphire glass on a low res LCD? Big deal, why not a better quality LCD? A new slower but quieter shutter? Should have been there from the start so all they did was fix a flaw/shortcoming. Changes to the menu system? We have all been providing suggestions for some time and these should not have required nearly 2 years to accomplish. Red dot to black dot... New covering... Fixed viewfinder to improve accuracy. A fix for a mistake. So please tell me again where the brilliance is here?

 

I include a post from another user in DRF to illustrate my point that I am not the only one that questions Leica's moves.

 

Post by Semorg:

 

Leica's new MF system is an exciting news to any camera/photography buff. But especially for someone like myself who owns 3 R lenses for its canon cameras.

 

That said, given the competitive market of 35 mm cameras and Leica camera's mediocre financial standings it comes as a strange gamble.

 

1, They are entering into a new market that they have little experience with

 

2, They are entering a market that is shrinking [MF market that is]

 

3, They are less able to focus on their 35 mm business.

 

 

The above, will add tremendous cost in R&D, manufacturing and marketing. Which I wonder if Leica can afford.

 

Knowing a bit about running an enterprise, and leica's past steady planning, I am left to wonder if this is a last ditch effort by Leica? A big gamble betting the house on it. Company's usually do not gamble in such a way, unless they are desperate. So this move, thought rather exciting has a sad undertone for me. They are desperate!

 

And most likely, Canon will release a 30mp + 1Ds IV in a while and will place further pressure on the fragile MF market. That in turn will turn Leica's new MF business into a losing venture that could bring down their entire camera business.

 

Could this be the end for Leica?

 

 

--

must watch: Official An Inconvenient Truth: Global Warming Effect, Al Gore Movie, Climate Change, CO2 Emissions & Solutions

My Latest Gallery: From Peru to Chile: Penultimate Austral: Peru to Southern Chile in Snaps Photo Gallery by salim madjd at pbase.com

[scott kirkpatrick]

The scale of new products is breathtaking after years of us getting one new lens a year, if we were lucky. They do make the M8 a little tired though.

 

I'm going to be there in about 5 hours, can't wait. I expect the Leica area will be mobbed.

 

That said, the pictures look more like an engineering model than a working camera, especially the back; I think they will have their work cut out to deliver; for the development team, Photokina is just the end of the beginning of the project.

 

Glad to hear (Farkas, and the fact that the camera was shown privately in London at least over a month ago) that the camera does take pictures and at least the 70mm lens is ready to be handled. I think the longest story to work out will be the lenses. Several have said that there are 8 new lenses, but I can only find 7 listed in any news story. (24, 35, 70, 100, 120, 180 and the T/S?) . Let's wait to see the multi-year chart in which lens availability is planned out. And I'm waiting for an EPuts techie story on the inner details of the lens design and how these lenses also made the 21 and 24/1.4 fall out as side benefits.

 

At this rate, i don't expect an M9 before 2010 at the earliest. And I don't expect Solms to get any speedier at writing Mx firmware.

 

scott

[Riccis]

I will respectfully disagree with the author of this thread.

 

I am very impressed with the M lenses and Leica delivered the one piece of glass that I was looking for in the 21 Summilux.

 

While I'm not interested in either the S2 or R10, fellow members that are close to me know that I am an M guy , I am impressed on how they were able to get this done (please remember the management shakedown at the beginning of the year... I come from a business background and know how something like this can make a company loose its focus and derail projects). The other key element that you are missing is that Leica now has a technology that can be applied to the complete line (including the M) and just that fact should make everyone very happy.

 

Cheers,

[diogenis]

Like I said,they were innovating with the M8 before, they innovate with the S2 now. As soon they realize they dont need to copycat the Japanese, they will soon take off again. The more I see that S2, the more I'm convinced, provided it's really good and fast and surpasses the current dSLRs.

And as time passes by M8 gets better and more solid...

[ddp]

Kent10D,

 

I couldn't agree with you more. However with the exception of a few standout photographers like Sean Reid, Bill Parsons, Guy Manusco, I haven't seen that much to be excited about. I am in it for pure personal pleasure so I don't include myself.

 

Haven't seen much of their work in the photo forum, so I really can't comment. I know they may be prolific posters, but there are quite a few talented shooters posting on here showing what Leicas can do in the right hands.

 

I have no problem with Leica introducing cameras I will never be able to afford...this gear has always been pricey, as is most professional gear.

[Guest stnami]

Well a Sigma DP2 came........... it is equipped with a 24.2mm F2.8 lens, equivalent to 41mm on a 35mm SLR camera

[andybarton]

Haven't seen much of their work in the photo forum, so I really can't comment. I know they may be prolific posters, but there are quite a few talented shooters posting on here showing what Leicas can do in the right hands.

 

I have no problem with Leica introducing cameras I will never be able to afford...this gear has always been pricey, as is most professional gear.

 

Bill Parsons posts occasionally, and I have seen Guy's work elsewhere, but I have never seen Sean's.

 

That's OK - no one says that anyone has to share their work here.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[cbretteville]

I've never seen Sean's professional work, but the reviews he wrote for LL give you an idea of the shots he uses to illustrate his articles.

 

Leica Digilux 2 Review. Part Two

 

- Carl