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A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation


Guest Roel

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Actually, "Wolkenkuckucksland" is quite translatable. It means "Cloud-Cukoo Land." It's a reference to a classical Greek comedy, "The Birds," by Aristophanes, written 2500 years ago. "Cloud-Cukoo Land" was a utopian city in the clouds that a couple of the bird-characters in the play wished to create. It means an impractical, utopian dream, or the place where someone who has that dream resides. It's been used in a number of popular culture references in the recent past.

 

Hmmm. I wonder what Aristophanes would have to say about the M8. Or the level of discourse on Internet fora. :D

 

--Peter

 

Yes - I forgot about the classical connection ;) There is a more recent connection too: Fieldmarshall von Rundstedt is famous for regularly referring to Hitler's Bavarian retreat as "Wolkenkuckucksheim" expressing what he, as a Prussian professional, felt about "that upstart Austrian corporal"..

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I think the M8 is great at ISO 640 and lower, but if it could get the same image quality at 3,200, there is no way in heck I would not use that.

 

I think that really is the crux of the matter. Can you get the same image quality at 3200 ISO? I like the M8 because I like rangefinder shooting and I like being able to use my M lenses on a digital body. But the main reason I like the M8 is that I love the film like qualities inherent in the images. I strongly suspect that with the amount of in-camera processing necessary to get clean high ISO images, the images from an M9, or whatever iteration, would look just like everyone else's. I fully accept the M8 right now for what it is and no matter how much I read here about perceived shortcomings or what others think it should do or become in the future, I'm still awfully damn happy working with it.

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No special needs. But normal needs.

 

For you yes, for others no.

 

The fastest film I used to use with my M6 was Fuji Neopan 1600. The M8 produces better results than that IMHO. So while I'd like better results at 2500, the performance is acceptable to me because I shoot very little in that sort of light. For you it would appear that the situation is different. We've known from its release that the M8 is not as good as the Nikon and Canon DSLRs at high ISOs. If high ISOs are important to you, you should have bought a camera such as a D3 or the Canon equivalent. It's no different to a sports photographer buying an M8 and then complaining because there are no long lenses. You buy the camera that suits your needs.

 

The M8 is what is is. No amount of handwringing will change that. You bought the wrong camera, the solution is in your hands.

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I think that really is the crux of the matter. Can you get the same image quality at 3200 ISO? I like the M8 because I like rangefinder shooting and I like being able to use my M lenses on a digital body. But the main reason I like the M8 is that I love the film like qualities inherent in the images. I strongly suspect that with the amount of in-camera processing necessary to get clean high ISO images, the images from an M9, or whatever iteration, would look just like everyone else's. I fully accept the M8 right now for what it is and no matter how much I read here about perceived shortcomings or what others think it should do or become in the future, I'm still awfully damn happy working with it.

 

Hi Brent,

 

Could a future digital M give the same quality at ISO 2500 (actual 3200) as the current model does at ISO 640? I see no reason why it couldn't. There's another path to this goal and that is to increase the S/N ratio in the image pipeline (certainly including the amplifier). Its very clear to me that this is what was done with the Nikon D700, for example. People often attribute the Canons' lack of noise at high ISO to smoothing. But, in fact, several of their cameras produce files with a very good S/N ratio. It's largely the AA filter, in fact, that tends to make the files from many DSLRs look smoothed. That's not to say that a camera like the 5D isn't applying some noise reduction before writing its RAW files but rather that the signal itself is already pretty clean. Of course I'm talking about RAW files here, not the JPEGs that can be produced with various amounts of in-camera smoothing.

 

Increasing the S/N ratio in the digital M shouldn't take away from the crispness of the M8 files at all. It would just reduce the amount of artificial electronic garbage that is mixed in with the picture signal.

 

In a nutshell, smoothing the noise in files from cameras with lower S/N ratios is quite different from increasing the S/N noise ratio itself. It's abundantly clear that progress can, and has, been made in the latter area (even looking at the M8 as compared to the DMR) but we're certainly not at any kind of ceiling in this respect (as Canon and Nikon keep showing us).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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David Alan Harvey shot a portrait of a student in Cuba studying by candlelight - Leica M, ISO 50 (Velvia - for National Geo.), 35 f/1.4 lens (not even a Noctilux).

 

Cuban Soul by David Alan Harvey - The Digital Journalist

 

If you're talented and skillful, it can be done. If you aren't - who cares? An important lesson for all students.

 

(There are lots of other low-ISO, low-light shots in this slide show, BTW)

 

Yes, indeed, your gear is not so important for good photography as some posters in this forum think, or suggest. With talent you can make amazing pictures with any camera, if they are just working properly (metering, exposure, etc.)

 

Regarding this theme, a new FF sensor - if it is possible for the M8 ? - is not really a big issue for me. The crop factor of 1.33 makes the range of the M8 longer towards tele: 90mm becomes a 120mm, and on the wide-angle side my VC Wide Heliar 15mm becomes a very good 20mm lens. Amazing sharp and also affordable is the C Zeiss 4.5 /21mm (Travel) Biogon ZM which makes a good 28mm lens.

 

BTW, I found in the Camera Corner of the Digital Journalist an interesting article for ROEL: the Leica M8 on assignment, by Bruno Stevens.

 

Camera Corner The Leica M8 on Assignment by Bruno Stevens - The Digital Journalist (September 2007)

 

In my opinion:

 

If you want to buy a M8 / M8.2 you have to know what it's limits and contras are. If you don't accept them don't buy it!

I feel no need to blaim Leica for the M8 limitations or demand anything from them if they come with a FF M9. I expect of course a good service / repair policy, if I need that.

I bought my M8 because of the outstanding quality of the images, and the simplicity of the M-concept. I can take it where ever I go, just one compact body with one or two small and fast lenses. Yes, I use also for special circumstances Nikon or Canon (G9) gear, because I know and accept the limitations of the RF-concept, that's all.

 

 

Albert

 

Aruba Photos - Aruba PhotoRefresh

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[quote=stunsworth;663352

 

 

The original point of 'Roel' was the question if the upgrades or the buy of a M8-2 is wise, because Leica will indeed produce a M9 not far from now. The sensor will be much better, I quess. I thought there were alteady all kind of rumors about that.

Roel cannot argue any longer here. He has been banned from the forum because of negativity!! I have to ask my parents if they remember times where measures like that were taken. The fifties?

'Roel' is a great and well known photographer, and I never saw him without his Leica's. At least the analogous ones. As a new member I wonder what kind of forum this is.

 

Iris.

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Roel cannot argue any longer here. He has been banned from the forum because of negativity!! I have to ask my parents if they remember times where measures like that were taken. The fifties?

 

'Roel' is a great and well known photographer, and I never saw him without his Leica's. At least the analogous ones. As a new member I wonder what kind of forum this is

 

Iris, to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been banned from the forum beause of their 'negativity' - I don't believed it happened much in the 50s either.

 

If he is great and well known then perhaps he ought to reveal himself.

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Iris and Roel are posting from the same IP address. You may draw your own conclusions from this.

 

Roel has been banned following discussions between all the Moderators. Just for the record, he was not banned for just negativity, but for his general rude attitude to the forum.

 

If people were banned just for negativity, there'd be about 3 members here :)

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Absolutely...

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

...and amen. For weddings, the main thing is low noise in the shadows. If Leica had better-performing sensor at ISO 3200 or 6400 what it means is that your nominally underexposed shots at 1250 or 2500 would look much, much better :)

 

Would I use that capability? Of course I would. I want the days when you need to bang flash in someone's face to be well and truly gone, and with the new Canons and Nikons, they are.

 

Now Leica has the glass, I just need another stop or two of latitude. Not a ridiculous amount.. and I don't care about video at all... but a stop or two more and the m8 would be all I ever use. Right now, there are times when it's just too dark...

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Iris, to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been banned from the forum beause of their 'negativity' - I don't believed it happened much in the 50s eith

er.

 

If he is great and well known then perhaps he ought to reveal himself.

 

 

He called me and told me (amused) that he was banned, and that the one who did it gave the following written reason: general antagonising and negativity. The ban would never be lifted,

 

He cannot reveal himself any longer, because he is been banned. As I know him he would probably say: first abolish the ban. If he still has interest.

 

Iris.

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Well, I tried to explain that the manner of discussion on this forum is a bit less confrontational than on some other photoforums I can name....:rolleyes:

Now I'm trying to figure out which Dutch professional photographer by the name of Roel, famous or otherwise, is "never seen without his Leicas" I cannot say that any name springs to mind......

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Good grief indeed Bill.

 

So I bowed out of this thread, had a great day out making pictures with my M8, and I am now amused to see the length of this thread. Roel - there are Leica-defenders here it's true, but there are many of us who have bought into the M8 and have also been very critical of aspects of Leica design, marketing, quality control, road-map, etc. etc.. Given the technology available at the launch of the M8; the chosen Kodak sensor is something that Leica did get right as it is a high performer, though not at D3 high ISOs. Since your thread is focused on sensor quality and a wish for higher ISO performance I, and many other critical members here did not support the tenor of your thread or your early assumptions and presumptions of what constitutes 'professional'.

 

This forum is actually functioning well, in this thread it has been critical of your style and your 'case'. Whilst you have some supporters who are valued posters to the forum, there are many of us who find the 'case' badly made; I am no less independently critical because I disagree with you, neither is anyone else here. The 'fan club' jibe was pathetic. It is no wonder that some of us voiced concerns about what you are

 

 

 

................ Chris

 

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

Besides all the 'would, could and should' arguments brought up here, the camera produces excellent results. That doesn't mean, though, the camera is right for everybody.

I think, we all can agree on this.

 

Being aware of all its cons prior to purchase yet still going ahead and paying the big ticket the M8 comes with, only to then bitch about the camera publicly is in my opinion not only unprofessional and immature, it's simply plain dumb and a waste of everybody's time.

Please move on.

 

PS: As a farewell note, I believe many here are still waiting to see your outstanding and award winning work (I am not sarcastic, just eager to learn from others) ... Oops, didn't read the last few posts before typing this. Too bad.

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Well, I tried to explain that the manner of discussion on this forum is a bit less confrontational

than on some other photoforums I can name....:rolleyes:

Now I'm trying to figure out which Dutch professional photographer by the name of Roel, famous or otherwise, is "never seen without his Leicas" I cannot say that any name springs to mind......

 

I placed his name between inverted commas. Yes, it's the same IP adress. Sometimes I work for him, if he is very busy. I called him to ask if I was allowed to reveal some things. No. He does not want to go along with people who are banning persons.

Curious I read some of his writings, and could not discover any abuse from him. Some of you did. Anyhow, it's five o'clock, so I'm going home in a while.

 

Iris.

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I placed his name between inverted commas. Yes, it's the same IP adress. Sometimes I work for him, if he is very busy. I called him to ask if I was allowed to reveal some things. No. He does not want to go along with people who are banning persons.

Curious I read some of his writings, and could not discover any abuse from him. Some of you did. Anyhow, it's five o'clock, so I'm going home in a while.

 

Iris.

 

Frankly, he pissed me off royally.

With my first post, all I was saying was that besides all the well known cons of the M8, the camera still does produce excellent results. Excellent enough to win awards in a field where commonly the submissions have been taken with 1dsm3's or Phase One and other digital backs. Quite a step up from the tiny M8, I'd say.

 

Roel's answer was uncalled for, beside the point, rude and plain condescending.

 

Tell that your boss.

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What you fail to consider is that there are trade-offs for noise free high ISO. The M8 images have a unique appearance among digital camera systems, in part because the files aren't overworked by the processing engine. If you want noiseless images in the M8 at 6400 ISO, you likely are going to end up with images that look like everyone else's. Personally, I don't want a digital M system that produces the slick, razor sharp, overly smooth files that characterize the rest of the digital field.

 

I take it you haven't shot with the Nikon D3/D700? Very few trade-off there. One of the reasons I went with the Nikons vs the Canons (originally a D200) is, to me, their more film like looking file, and this esp applies to the D3 at higher iso. It's not perfectly clean (ie smoothed) but it's sharp and holds detail really nicely. I actually rough my files up after the fact with stronger tone curves and even sometimes grain added.

 

If you check out my website you will see lots of performance photography, mostly done with film, some with flash and some without. Film has a different look to it (one that I actually prefer). But not many clients need (or will pay for) film anymore. When an editor wants a full page or double truck shot of a band or performer, possibly under the not best of lighting conditions, am I going to eschew the technology at hand that will allow me to get that shot with a decent shutter speed and maybe a little bit more than wide open aperture? Of course not. The camera still doesn't compose for me (though the M8 sometimes does!) or decide on the moment to push the trigger. But the higher usable isos allow me more wiggle room to be creative, and I'll take that any day.

 

For me the M8 is a great casual shooter. And I still actually prefer my M7 with some Neopan 1600 any day. But the Nikon has really raised the bar. I've had thoughts recently about selling the M8 though I'll probably leave it just as is and shoot with it on occasion. M's are a joy to carry and use but for some reason the M8 and I haven't gelled like I expected we would.

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He called me and told me (amused) that he was banned, and that the one who did it gave the following written reason: general antagonising and negativity. The ban would never be lifted,

 

He cannot reveal himself any longer, because he is been banned. As I know him he would probably say: first abolish the ban. If he still has interest.

 

Iris.

 

It's a vintage day for arrant drivel, by the look of it. Just like buses - none for ages then two turn up at once...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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He called me and told me (amused) that he was banned, and that the one who did it gave the following written reason: general antagonising and negativity. The ban would never be lifted,

 

He cannot reveal himself any longer, because he is been banned. As I know him he would probably say: first abolish the ban. If he still has interest.

 

Iris.

 

He called you, BUT you are both posting from the same IP address. What are you in a different room with NO doors between them and using one internet connection.

 

He can't reveal himself anymore, He never did reveal himself. All he posted was a bunch of hype.

 

Have to agree with Bill once again, and that's not a bad thing to do.

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