KM-25 Posted September 21, 2008 Share #81 Posted September 21, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) David Alan Harvey shot a portrait of a student in Cuba studying by candlelight - Leica M, ISO 50 (Velvia - for National Geo.), 35 f/1.4 lens (not even a Noctilux). Cuban Soul by David Alan Harvey - The Digital Journalist If you're talented and skillful, it can be done. If you aren't - who cares? An important lesson for all students. (There are lots of other low-ISO, low-light shots in this slide show, BTW) In 1981, Bill Allard made spectacular images in a dark slaughterhouse in Peru on Kodachrome 25. Neither of these guys make excuses, they not only choose to work around the limits implied upon them, they actually thrive on it at times. That is what a GOOD photographer does, make images, period. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Hi KM-25, Take a look here A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
scott kirkpatrick Posted September 21, 2008 Share #82 Posted September 21, 2008 How Can Pure Trollery Go On for This Many Pages? Please, Photokina, get started, make the Monday night announcements, and let us move on. scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent10D Posted September 21, 2008 Share #83 Posted September 21, 2008 That is what a GOOD photographer does, make images, period. Niiiiice. I like that one. Oh how I love it when someone actually makes a sensible point in the middle of a punch-up. If I may amend the above quote just slightly: "This is what a REAL photographer does ... ". Whether the images are good or not ... and that's a hugely subjective judgement of course ... making images separates the photogs from the armchair/barstool crowd. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted September 21, 2008 Share #84 Posted September 21, 2008 The original post is about Leica staying around to produce cameras ,,,,,,,,,,,,people ( with lots to spend) demand high iso and the makers will oblige as they want to sell, they couldn't give a toss about one's photographic abilities or whether they can or can't shoot at 25 iso. Sure leica takes a slightly different stance for now...what will happen if Kaufman drops dead tomorrow, I doubt if his heirs hold the same connection and admiration for Leica as a camera as he does Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent10D Posted September 21, 2008 Share #85 Posted September 21, 2008 Sure leica takes a slightly different stance for now...what will happen if Kaufman drops dead tomorrow, I doubt if his heirs hold the same connection and admiration for Leica as a camera as he does A scary thought indeed. Just the turnarounds that occurred after S. K. Lee left the building indicate how dependent Leica is on the personal vision of its fearless leader of the moment. But I guess that's the fate of the smaller company. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicamr Posted September 21, 2008 Share #86 Posted September 21, 2008 I have no real craving for a full frame sensor in the M or R digital solutions. I am now used to the crop factor of both systems and have lens angles wide enough for my needs. I do believe that Leica can produce a full frame DSLR with higher quality wide angle lens results compared to that of the digital full frame competition. Regarding image noise, from what I have read, the Nikon D300 is only one stop slower in comparable noise of the full frame D700 / D3 models. If the M or R Leica's had the same noise qualities of the D300, I think this would satisfy many more users / potential users. But it now appears that the technological digital image race requires a clear winner in every feature and function before it can be crowned a leader. What I do know, is that I will remain an extremely happy DMR and M8 user for sometime to come. I can't wait to see Leica images produced on the new Pradovit D. Regards Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 21, 2008 Share #87 Posted September 21, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh dear, once again. It is not just the sensor.Canon and Nikon use sensors that are exactly as noisy as any other CCD (Nikon), although pixel size is of influence as well, or noisier (CMos) by Canon. These companies apply very sophisticated electronic noise reduction to the signal before the RAW file gets written. This reduction gets better and better as time goes by, reason that Nikon seems to have "overtaken" Canon in "sensor technology" (meaning noise reduction algorithms) at the moment. Unfortunately there is no way for normal users to see the before-and-after results of that in-camera software operation. Leica has made another choice. The offer a manual camera with as much user control as possible. So they leave part of the noise reduction to the user in post processing, not to an engineer's choice in the camera. You want smooooooth....? It means you disagree with this design decision. Buy a Canon or Nikon. Or - a much better choice imo- Noise Ninja for your Leica. Btw - most top end printers choose to add noise to a Canon or Nikon file to get the best prints;great - double processing does not do file quality any good. I doubt the compution power would even fit into an M8 at this point of time. In-camera noise processing would take wholly new, more miniaturized electronics. I don't quite see how that could be done without redesigning the whole camera, including the internal layout of the bodyshell. Wishing for a sensor upgrade? Wolkenkuckucksland. An untranslatable German engineering term. If Leica comes up with an M9 that offers similar noise as the competition,I hope they will offer a menu option to switch it off. I prefer to cook my own files. (to forestall flames, this sentence comes with a tongue-in-cheek warning ) Having said that I still hope Leica will come up with a more sophisticated file handling regarding noise in a future firmware. After all, Imacon managed to halve noise in the DMR by firmware. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 21, 2008 Share #88 Posted September 21, 2008 If this thread continues with it's name calling and back-biting, I will have no hesitation in closing it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 21, 2008 Share #89 Posted September 21, 2008 HPlease, Photokina, get started, make the Monday night announcements, and let us move on If only that were to be the case <grin>. There will be a lot of hand wringing, not because of what the S2 is, but because of what it's not. I think it's important for people to see beyond their own hopes and needs. If a camera isn't suitable for them, that doesn't mean it's unsuitable for someone else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 21, 2008 Share #90 Posted September 21, 2008 If this thread continues with it's name calling and back-biting, I will have no hesitation in closing it. Well, Andy it seems that has been anticipated; an identical thread has been started in M8 campaign Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 21, 2008 Share #91 Posted September 21, 2008 Not any more it hasn't... Apologies for anyone who responded to that thread, but we have better things to do than cater to time-wasters who post multiple copies of the same thread in different sections, just get get maximum impact. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlemalt Posted September 21, 2008 Share #92 Posted September 21, 2008 My 2 cents. I don't have even have half the talent or ability as most of the posters here but when I bought the m8 I knew all the drawbacks and compromises it involved. I actually thought to myself - "If a new dSLR came out that had super mega ISO and MP would I care?". The answer was no. The leica gives very good files and I don't think I use the camera as well as it could. The thing the m8 gave me is my joy of photography back. There will always be an upgraded sensor on the horizon. I just wish the system was cheaper so more people could enjoy how I feel. I understand what you are getting at Roel. But im happy to be out of the upgrade loop and I can now just work at taking my pictures. This is my amateur point of veiw if it makes any difference. My 2 cents. SM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 21, 2008 Share #93 Posted September 21, 2008 And I had such a nice response Can you put it here, Andy, I thought I was posting in this thread at the time... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 21, 2008 Share #94 Posted September 21, 2008 For you, Jaap, since you asked nicely - of course Done... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted September 21, 2008 Share #95 Posted September 21, 2008 Can't wait ..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 21, 2008 Share #96 Posted September 21, 2008 Post # 87, Imants. Thank you Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 21, 2008 Share #97 Posted September 21, 2008 Oh dear, once again. It is not just the sensor.Canon and Nikon use sensors that are exactly as noisy as any other CCD (Nikon), although pixel size is of influence as well, or noisier (CMos) by Canon.These companies apply very sophisticated electronic noise reduction to the signal before the RAW file gets written. This reduction gets better and better as time goes by, reason that Nikon seems to have "overtaken" Canon in "sensor technology" (meaning noise reduction algorithms) at the moment. Unfortunately there is no way for normal users to see the before-and-after results of that in-camera software operation Jaap I disagree, my thoughts are that the latest sensors actually have a much better signal to noise ratio than sensors engineered more than two years ago. So it is not simply noise reduction. I am not sure if you own a recent Canon or Nikon DSLR, if you dont why are your opinions on them anymore valid than those non-M8 owner's opinions of the M8? We should endeavour to keep a level playing field here. In another thread I have posted the sudden appearance of the faint line on the sensor on one of my M8s. This appears to be another worrying defect becoming more common as the cameras get older, and of course that camera will have to go back to Leica to be repaired, having just returned from a 5 week sojourn having its RF adjusted and its LED viewfinder readout (which was dissappearing) repaired. I am it seems a beta tester of the M8, along with many others. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted September 21, 2008 Share #98 Posted September 21, 2008 I am not sure if you own a recent Canon or Nikon DSLR, if you dont why are your opinions on them anymore valid than those non-M8 owner's opinions of the M8? ......see post #117 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted September 21, 2008 Share #99 Posted September 21, 2008 David Alan Harvey shot a portrait of a student in Cuba studying by candlelight - Leica M, ISO 50 (Velvia - for National Geo.), 35 f/1.4 lens (not even a Noctilux). Cuban Soul by David Alan Harvey - The Digital Journalist If you're talented and skillful, it can be done. If you aren't - who cares? An important lesson for all students. (There are lots of other low-ISO, low-light shots in this slide show, BTW) Spot-On Adan! That was really what I meant... and with the Velvia 50! You made my day, man! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted September 21, 2008 Share #100 Posted September 21, 2008 ...It is not just the sensor... ....These companies apply very sophisticated electronic noise reduction to the signal before the RAW file gets written. This reduction gets better and better as time goes by, reason that Nikon seems to have "overtaken" Canon in "sensor technology" (meaning noise reduction algorithms) at the moment. Unfortunately there is no way for normal users to see the before-and-after results of that in-camera software operation.... You want smooooooth....? ... .....Buy a Canon or Nikon. Or - a much better choice imo- Noise Ninja for your Leica. Btw - most top end printers choose to add noise to a Canon or Nikon file to get the best prints;great - double processing does not do file quality any good. .... If Leica comes up with an M9 that offers similar noise as the competition,I hope they will offer a menu option to switch it off. I prefer to cook my own files... Jaap, as usual from you, a smart spot on commet. I may second every single word. I just add (as a punctualization) that Sony's taking almost the same Leica's decision, put the research on the best image quality rather than containing the High Iso. The New Alpha 900 gives us a clear show of that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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