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Guest Roel

A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation

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Well I have to agree with most of what has been said pro and con. Yes I knew what I was getting into when I bought the M8, although even though you know the high ISO noise is bad I was still shocked at how bad it really was when I actually used it. It is possible to get some usable high ISO and that is an art in itself. However, the big selling point of the M8 much touted by Leica was it's upgrade ability and honestly if you are going to use that as a selling point then the assumption is that the sensor will be part of that plan. Anything else is just cosmetic and if they don't we, or at least I, have been misled, or I am willing to admit that I believed what I wanted to believe. There are two things Leica needed to do right for the M8 and that is a quiet shutter and better high ISO. As of date they have not met realistic expectations. Releasing a newer camera with nothing more that a delayed re cocking option is pathetic and shows a real lack of commitment.Regards the quite shutter upgrade without the re cocking option it is just useless. "you can have a quieter click but we have kept the grinding motor for your enjoyment" If they can't do that how they ever gonna get a new sensor? As other have said, I am going to sit out the upgrade program. Leica simply has not done enough to convince me that anymore investment in my camera is worth it. Of course an M9 will be way too expensive and at that point and probably still behind everything else.I will just use my M8 until it quits and those fine lenses will be strictly for film. It's a pity really I am willing as others are to bend over backwards to make a digital M work for me...BUT... I can't wait forever.

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But remember that a good photographer also makes amazing and award winning pictures with Canon or Nikon .........

 

Albert

 

No doubt about that. Very true indeed.

As true as the fact that a not so good photographer won't make anything worth mentioning no matter what equipment s/he is using, Canon, Nikon or Leica.

 

For crying out loud, let's stop blaming the equipment and rather work on getting better.

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Guest Roel
I'm reading these kind of posts for some time now and never felt

• and last but not least, a 3 double page article about me and my work in the current issue of LFI (6/2008).

 

Sorry for my little ego trip here. That is not usually my style but let's face it, everyone who is complaining about the shortcomings of the M8, maybe it's time to blame their own shortcomings instead.

 

cheers, haribo (a.k.a. Harald Benz)

 

O.k, one more:

 

Is that all, mr. Benz? Shall I mention here all my prices, national and international? My books? ( One of them sponsored by Leica) All the publicity about my work? It's much, much more. Be careful if you write things like this. You could make yourself ridiculous. - Roel.

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What an answers! Evidence? In the parliament one needs f 2,8 in most situations, sometimes more, and on ISO 1250 the shutter speeds is than 1/90. In a lot of cases one cannot go lower, because of the movements. As we know ISO 1250 is bad with a Leica M.

But there are much more situations in which one needs more ISO than 1250. I worked twenty years with Leica M 4 and later 6, and in a lot of reports it was necessary to use film at ASA 1600. ( 1/30-f2.8) Mind you, I only used that speeds when strictly necessary. Still it is the case now and than. With the difference that the digital noise is ugly to see, more than the grain of films was. Leica now is simply far behind the others.

But I will stop my contributions here again. Another prof, the war photographer, gave you already many arguments why the M is no longer good enough for photojournalists. Maybe for a small part, who have to shoot in easy light conditions, and do not have to work fast.

And of course for worshippers who react on criticism as if their mum was insulted. The fact that most profs agree that Leica M is very handy as size, and that Leica has beautiful lenses, but that there are to many shortcomings to buy one, is the best proof that the concept is out. Anyway, Leica has to be very quick in producing a new sensor, because the others will also continue their improvements. Leica will be aware of that. Therefore the whole upgrade program is a wast of money. And probably 5000 for the M8/2 as well. Point taken? -Roel.

 

I shoot regularly in our version of parliament--the Senate chambers. I have Canon 5Ds with fast zooms, as well as the Canon 50/1.2. When I compare the results I get from the M8 and Noctilux or M8 and 50/1.4 ASPH, or even 35/2.0 ASPH, I find I prefer the M8 results. There is no need whatsoever to shoot at extremely high ISOs in these conditions if you have fast, high quality glass. Our Senate chamber is as dark as any government rooms anywhere and I never feel the need to go beyond ISO 640 with the M8 or ISO 800 with the Canon 5Ds.

 

I personally think the high ISO capability is overrated and do not consider it crucial to get better performance than what the M8 now does. I used 400 speed films for many years and occasionally pushed them to 800 and much less frequently to 1600. Never did I feel limited or unable to get the shot working at those ISOs. The fact that the Nikon D3 can shoot noise free images at 3200 and even 6400 doesn't suddenly incapacitate me because I can't to the same.

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Guest Roel
There is no need whatsoever to shoot at extremely high ISOs in these conditions if you have fast, high quality glass. Our Senate chamber is as dark as any government rooms anywhere and I never feel the need to go beyond ISO 640 with the M8 or ISO 800 with the Canon 5Ds.

 

Interesting that you took pictures in the parliament in Holland. Interesting also that your meter gave other values than those from the photographers here. Very good that you never needed some depth of field more than 2.8. Or a longer lens than wide angle. A real Leica man. Writes nonsense just to defend his camera.

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There is no need whatsoever to shoot at extremely high ISOs in these conditions if you have fast, high quality glass. Our Senate chamber is as dark as any government rooms anywhere and I never feel the need to go beyond ISO 640 with the M8 or ISO 800 with the Canon 5Ds.

 

Interesting that you took pictures in the parliament in Holland. Interesting also that your meter gave other values than those from the photographers here. Very good that you never needed some depth of field more than 2.8. Or a longer lens than wide angle. A real Leica man. Writes nonsense just to defend his camera.

 

Are you just trying to start arguments, or are you interested in talking about photography? If it's the former, go somewhere else!

 

I was expressing my opinion. Your response is to insult and ridicule. Is this how you relate to your students, professor?

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Guest Roel

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Our Senate chamber is as dark as any government rooms anywhere

 

Interesting that you took pictures in the parliament in Holland. Interesting also that your meter gave other values than those from the photographers here. Very good that you never needed some depth of field more than 2.8. Or a longer lens than wide angle. A real Leica man. Writes nonsense just to defend his camera.

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Would you care to disprove the statement? Presumably you have done light level tests in our Senate chambers?

 

Also, let's clarify for others here that the last paragraph shown above as a quote from me is in fact a quote from you.

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There is no need whatsoever to shoot at extremely high ISOs in these conditions if you have fast, high quality glass. Our Senate chamber is as dark as any government rooms anywhere and I never feel the need to go beyond ISO 640 with the M8 or ISO 800 with the Canon 5Ds.

 

Interesting that you took pictures in the parliament in Holland. Interesting also that your meter gave other values than those from the photographers here. Very good that you never needed some depth of field more than 2.8. Or a longer lens than wide angle. A real Leica man. Writes nonsense just to defend his camera.

Excuse me? Where did Brent say that he took photographs in the parliament in Holland? You lost me there.

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I partly agree. I think that the last thing we as customers should do is to defend Leica and to "support" them..

However I hadn't expected anything from the digital M-line this year so after all the M8.2 is welcome. It's only an alernative M8 for those who want to put up the extra cash and not a replacement as they say... More like a A la carte option really.. Leica is not run like any other camera company and if they were to change they would probably die..

However, what I don't like about Leica is their stubborness.. I really think they should listen to their customers who support and stand up for this little company and not only to the people who say good things.. Sadly I don't think Leica will stop with the UV/IR filters on the next M-model even if it's possible.. They think they're in to deep and probably don't want to admit the problem.. I would without a doubt go out a buy new M8.2 for 5000 euros tomorrow if the filter problem and coding issue wasn't there.. I wouldn't have to buy expensive filters, worry about flare, six code lenses or hand code, go in to the menu to change settings for uncoded lenses..

 

AND PLEASE LEICA!! MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO CHOOSE LENS CORRECTION AVAILABLE IN THE MENU. THAT'S THE LEAST YOU CAN DO FOR CUSTOMERS. DIDN'T SOMEONE HAVE A PETITION FOR THIS, OR AM I DREAMING?

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A real Leica man. Writes nonsense just to defend his camera.

 

Hi Roel, I think we've got to the point where you should point us at all those books you've written, and let us know your rates as you mentioned earlier. At the moment you are coming across as a troll who is talking the talk, but not walking the walk - horrible cliche I know. Time to put up or shut up - another horrible cliche.

 

All your posts can be seen here...

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/search.php?searchid=651384&photoplog_searchinfo=1

 

As far as I can see, every one is a negative post about Leica and their products. My opinion is that you are a troll and I would advise any mod to start comparing your IP addresses to people who have been banned - and there aren't many of those.

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Guest Roel
Hi Roel, I think we've got to the point where you should point us at all those books you've written,

 

 

The books are photo books.

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Guest Roel

Excuse me? Where did Brent say that he took photographs in the parliament in Holland? You lost me there.

 

No, he did not write that. He was not even there. So how could he know that it is as dark as the place he was in? That's what he wrote, if you read carefully.

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No, he did not write that. He was not even there. So how could he know that it is as dark as the place he was in? That's what he wrote, if you read carefully.

Actually what he wrote is a common English idiom, meaning that it was rather dark where he was, not referring to any specific other parliament.

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Guest Roel

As far as I can see, every one is a negative post about Leica and their products. My opinion is that you are a troll and I would advise any mod to start comparing your IP addresses to people who have been banned - and there aren't many of those.

 

There we are! Banning. Thank you very much. It is the final proof that we are dealing here with worshippers. Old fashion ones. like the Leica is. - Roel.

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There we are! Banning. Thank you very much. It is the final proof that we are dealing here with worshippers. Old fashion ones. like the Leica is. - Roel.

 

Please read what I wrote. I didn't say that you should be banned. I said that your IP address should be compared to people who have been banned in the past. The mods have access to that information.

 

If you have no connection with such a person then there isn't a problem.

 

Anyhow, we're still waiting for that link to your books on Amazon or Blurb.

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Please read what I wrote. I didn't say that you should be banned. I said that your IP address should be compared to people who have been banned in the past.

 

If you have no connection with such a person then there isn't a problem.

 

Anyhow, we're still waiting for that link to your books on Amazon or Blurb.

 

And why do you want to compare that? Further: why should I do you a favor while you are calling me a troll?

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Actually what he wrote is a common English idiom, meaning that it was rather dark where he was, not referring to any specific other parliament.

 

Strange idioms. My house is as expensive as all houses anywhere. My girl is as beautiful as all girls anywhere. My Leica is as modern as all camera's anywhere.

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There we are! Banning. Thank you very much. It is the final proof that we are dealing here with worshippers. Old fashion ones. like the Leica is. - Roel.

I think the misunderstanding is that the style of discussing on this forum is rather less confrontational than you may be used to on other forums. Trying to make your points as forcefully as you do is quite counterproductive over here.

 

 

 

The corr ect idiom is,btw, "my house is as expensive as any house"

 

 

Edit: Sorry, I see the next post... We make an exception for Imants as a rule

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