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Guest Roel

A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation

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Guest stnami

Steve your attitude has hit the ridiculous level, maybe you should be banned for your obsessive compulsive attitude of late. Roel has presented a pragmatic approach to Leica's sensor state in relation to photographic requirements of today. Having the goods to shoot at 2400 plus iso or whatever is a positive and yes in many lighting situations it is a must.

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And why do you want to compare that? Further: why should I do you a favor while you are calling me a troll?

 

I wouldn't do the comparing - I'm not a moderator. If you had been banned but were trying to make a come back under a different alias then you would be breaking the rules and would deserve to be banned again IMHO.

 

Why should you do me a favour? To prove to me and everyone else that's reading this thread that you really have had some books published and aren't just making mischief.

 

Amazon? Blurb?

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Very wise. It is even unwise to buy a M8-2 now. Because it cannot take too long before the M9 will arrive. They have to. Or, as I wrote leica has to say if a new sensor will be an upgrade too. They won't tell, I suppose. Like always. So: 1300 euro for a year, or 5000 euro for a year. After that both options will be completely old technology as sensor. While the new one will deliver better pictures.

 

You forget to deduct the value of your 2.hand M8 in your calculation. It is interesting to see how good prices 2.hand M8 are sold for these days. I payed - about - 22.000 NOK (tax free, in Singapore) for mine, and they are sold for 27 - 27000 NOK here in Norway 2.hand.

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Steve your attitude has hit the ridiculous level, maybe you should be banned for your obsessive compulsive attitude of late.

 

Maybe I should, but it's interesting that several posters who registered quite some time ago have only started posting in the last few weeks, and all of their posts are negative.

 

I'm a curious kind of guy, things like that interest me. Sad I know.

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Guest Roel
You forget to deduct the value of your 2.hand M8 in your calculation. It is interesting to see how good prices 2.hand M8 are sold for these days. I payed - about - 22.000 NOK (tax free, in Singapore) for mine, and they are sold for 27 - 27000 NOK here in Norway 2.hand.

 

That is a good point. But the question is if they will also do good prices when a leica has arrived with a much better sensor, and probably other big advantages. While the old one is in the meantime a couple of years old. I wonder. Anyway: your decision to wait for the M9 is the best thing to do. - Roel.

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Guest Roel
I wouldn't do the comparing - I'm not a moderator. If you had been banned but were trying to make a come back under a different alias then you would be breaking the rules and would deserve to be banned again IMHO.

 

Why should you do me a favour? To prove to me and everyone else that's reading this thread that you really have had some books published and aren't just making mischief.

 

Amazon? Blurb?

 

The first point still has an unpleasant flavour about it.

The second point: Making mischief? In this way, on this forum? Are you crazy? The idea alone tells perhaps something about yourself.

Perhaps next time. I'm going to sleep now. Tomorrow I have to work. For a magazine. I guess you don´t believe it.

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Guest stnami

Roel's pretty spot on Leica has to do something to stay in the game, hopefully there is a Leica DSLR type of camera out there as the M will not compete......heaps of my mature age students have a great disposable income for all sorts of stuff.... there is only one M8 and that is rarely seen. Lots of film Ms though with every conceivable lens ... and of course the high end Nikons and Canons and the kids love their speed as very few are landscape photographers .......... it's people , indoor stuff etc

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I'm with Imants, he's perfectly right.

By the way, Roel has got some points for what that concerns developing and Leica prices, but I'm used to the latter and I won't fight for that.

Developing is not that great issue for me today, and that won't be tomorrow too, because my M8 is able to deliver stunning pictures today (in terms of quality) and it won't degrade in the future. Only a new DRF (from another brand?) could make me change my mind.

It's obvious that small developing still have to come, mainly to correct issues (IR for example) than to revolutionize the system.

It's up to Leica to make "real changes" (as Roel intended) in the M system, but it's up to their willing to be still on the market, and most important, still on the history of photography (the modern history as well, the digital, as Roel said).

I'm sure that they're willing that, as it's been proved by that great number of new lenses, while DSLR market is focusing on the cameras' developing.

Don't forget that after developing that great piece of a sensor that Canon took on the 1DsIII, they discovered that they had to re-design, and re-calculate a complete set of new lenses (as the 14mm L 2.8 II or the 16-35L f2.8 II)

I like the perspective to have new instruments to "create" pictures (as the new fast summiluxes) more than having the same lenses taking the same pictures with better sensor's quality (but that's just me, since I still believe that Photography is more a matter of lenses than a sensor's).

Few years ago, using a Velvia 50 didn't necessary mean to take good pictures, still many photographer can't use that film, and I believe the same is for these sensors (being those Leica or Japanese's).

 

Anyway when my income will not be enough to let me buy new Leica gears I will simply continue shooting with what I already have (if that let me take good pictures as well) or split to another system:( , who knows?

Matter of fact this is another apples and oranges issue.

The M8 is not a DSLR, so being a Leica-M user and an Olympus-Canon DSLR user too, I choose my gears depending on the kind of work, or delight I want. That's all IMHO.

Today the M8 is alone in his sea, and it sails quite well, with some troubles sometimes, but still that boat comes back home.

Just my personal point of view!

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Frankly much of this argument seems to me to miss the point. ISO above 800 has always been and remains a luxury, and people who want to turn the darkness into day are IMO missing the point of the darkness - and missing the beauty.

 

Would I love it if the M8's ISO 1250 and 2500 were beautiful? Sure. Can I live without that? Yeah, I can.

 

In case anyone missed it, Leica announced a 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 lens this week. These are MUCH harder design problems than a faster sensor, and they work on your full-frame film Ms. They're expensive. I have no doubt that they're worth the money, and I have no doubt that they're better than anything two stops slower offered by any other vendor.

 

Will this help Leica survive in today's market? I don't know. But I hope so.

 

By the way, next weekend I'll go to the ACL music festival here in Austin and I'll bring the M8. Last year I went and my M8 with its Summilux 50 passed security with no problems whatsoever. Right in front of me a guy with a 5D and a guy with a D80 were turned away. FWIW.

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And yes, I own two M8 camera's. I know what I'm talking about. Many of the arguments in the Iraq test I recognize. Inaccurate, unreliable, hopeless ISO above 640. In this profession for example one cannot have that the battery must be removed and placed back again, because the camera stopped taking pictures during a scene. And so on. I worked twenty years with M. It was all fantastic. Therefore I bought the M8. I wished I did not. At least not for that money. Really, Leica is to blame. Roel.

 

I think the correct term is 'buyers remorse'.

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Roel move on. Sell the M8, don't worry about Leica or it's future, don't look back. Find some peace and leave the M8 forum in peace.

 

Canon or Nikon have what you are looking for Roel. So go shoot your magazine assignment and be happy. Don't waste your time and expertise here. Leica will do what it is going to do no matter what you or me or anyone on this forum might say or think:confused:.

 

To the original post. When Nikon brought out the D3 I sent them a number of complaint letters asking why they didn't upgrade the sensor in my already purchased D2X. Strangley they ignored me. Of course I shouldn't have been surprised because when they brought the D2X out and then updated it to the D2Xs (within a half year). I complained to Nikon with no response.

I should mention less than a year after Nikon announced the D3 they now offer a buffer upgrade - do you think they knew that was possible and important before they shipped the first D3. Cost of that upgrade is $500+tax. Cut Leica some slack.....please or just move on.

 

Best Regards To All. Terry

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Well, I am a prof, and a well known one. I know what I'm talking about...

 

You might be correct, but being a prof doesn't make it so. I could tell stories about the really dumb things some profs have taught and believed.

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O.k, one more:

 

Is that all, mr. Benz? Shall I mention here all my prices, national and international? My books? ( One of them sponsored by Leica) All the publicity about my work? It's much, much more. Be careful if you write things like this. You could make yourself ridiculous. - Roel.

 

I'd say, you are the one making yourself ridiculous. The M8 is the first camera I bought after leaving university some 17 years ago. So, in that regard I'm doing not bad with this camera for the very first 12 month.

 

Yes, please feel free to mention all your prices, national and international. Show us your book sponsored by Leica and whatever else you claim to have. I have no doubt you are as good and well known as you say.

But be careful, all it does is make you look like a fool. A big one, that is. Such an acclaimed professional photographer, yet he can't do anything other than bitching about his bad purchase. Boohoo.

If you really are that good, you should be too busy acting like a whiny kid. You should have already returned your M8 to your dealer some time ago, traded it, took a cut or whatever and moved on with some other gear better suited to your professional needs to live happily ever after.

 

I bought the M8 because of the excellent glass from Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander it allows me to use. I knew the camera has quirks - like other digital cameras have too - but I also figured i can deal with it.

So far, i have nothing to complain about.

You on the other hand should have well known in advance that the sensor wouldn't be up to your high professional standards. So, why did you bother buying it?

Don't tell me about Leica's promise of longevity and upgrades. You could have easily saved your money and waited for this to happen.

Considering this it makes me really wonder what to think about you as a professional photographer and your rather questionable business decisions.

Remember, time is money. You seem to be very good at spending money and wasting your valuable time with the wrong equipment.

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O.k, one more:

 

Is that all, mr. Benz? Shall I mention here all my prices, national and international? My books? ( One of them sponsored by Leica) All the publicity about my work? It's much, much more. Be careful if you write things like this. You could make yourself ridiculous. - Roel.

 

Roel,

 

"A luminous object need not shine light upon itself." If it is not to much trouble can you point us to your work, hopefully on the web. I believe you have said you are a "prof" meaning professional shooter (I think) please understand the way we will better understand your rhetoric as it relates to the M8 is from your work and books, etc. By the way "prices" should be "prizes" I only point that out because it is important to the point of your post.

 

Best Regards To All. Terry.

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Guest stnami
Best Regards To All. Terry.

 

Best regard to all, Terry.

 

.as for me I ain't a spell check unit:p

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Best regard to all, Terry.

 

.as for me I ain't a spell check unit:p

 

stnami... WHATEVER, we all know you are still looking in the mirror every morning and patting yourself on the back and thinking you are clever (not)!

 

Best To All. Terry

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Roel, I have to ask: We know what you want from Leica, but what is it that you want from this forum?

 

Perhaps you should talk to the three photographers that are members of Magnum that I know for sure use the M8 for paid work instead of placing your wants / rants here?

 

Yes, there are some blind M8 worshippers on this site, but there are also pros like me who have 4-5 Leica film bodies and want a digital option that they can easily afford, even if it is not perfect, which the M8 clearly is not.

 

The M8 is a pain in my ass compared to my film M's, but even at ISO 800 ( no, it is not ISO 640, it is 1/3rd faster ) it is much better than ISO 800 film. I HATE the damn IR filters, they are pain to have on lenses that I also shoot color film with.

 

The bottom line is this. The M8 is not as good in low light as my D3 / D700, and those cameras DO put out as sharp a file as the M8 does. The M8 is far from what pros who prefer Leica would want.

 

BUT...The camera does work well in many cases and I have decided that it is worth the trouble. The photos I have made from the M8 have paid for it LONG ago, with images running up to two page spreads as high end ads, editorial shots in Time and Newsweek, etc.

 

So what is it that you want from this forum, really, tell us, we are all ears.

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David Alan Harvey shot a portrait of a student in Cuba studying by candlelight - Leica M, ISO 50 (Velvia - for National Geo.), 35 f/1.4 lens (not even a Noctilux).

 

Cuban Soul by David Alan Harvey - The Digital Journalist

 

If you're talented and skillful, it can be done. If you aren't - who cares? An important lesson for all students.

 

(There are lots of other low-ISO, low-light shots in this slide show, BTW)

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