A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation

[Guest DuquesneG]

OK. I'll stop feeding the troll.

[Guest Roel]

I do agree which is why I wont be spending my money on any of the current upgrades. Others may well take a different view. The M8 sensor is old technology but the whole M8 package can still give outstanding results - and overall it is a great camera to use.

 

I'll wait for the M9.

 

Jeff

 

Very wise. It is even unwise to buy a M8-2 now. Because it cannot take too long before the M9 will arrive. They have to. Or, as I wrote leica has to say if a new sensor will be an upgrade too. They won't tell, I suppose. Like always. So: 1300 euro for a year, or 5000 euro for a year. After that both options will be completely old technology as sensor. While the new one will deliver better pictures.

[Guest Roel]

OK. I'll stop feeding the troll.

 

 

If there is no argument left, some people start to call names. How plebeian.

[ChrisC]

OK. I'll stop feeding the troll.

 

Me too. I really was having a 'nice day' but I,regret being the first to answer the 'prof' [whatever that turns out to be]. Silly me, I took Roel's post seriously. I'm off to feed myself, and prepare for another day out tomorrow with my seemingly unusable camera that would get acid-lemon-sucking-face stares from profs, enlightened students, and their rich parent folk. Boy; if only I'd learnt that earlier.....

 

................. Chris

[caparobertsan]

Please be patient. Leica is 23 years behind in technology of Japanese. It will happen I know for sure but I do`nt know when! Maybe in 2 years? I am glad it is not happening now because I just bought M8 with my 6 month of saving and selling off my other equipment. Even I know Japanese cameras can do better with high iso or make shutter quieter, I have chosen M8. Because Leica is the ultimate tool and if you are serious photographer you want to use it at least once in our life! I am so happy with how M8 operate, and rangefinder is so easy to do the focusing.

Now I feel I can sell off most of my equipment including my R equipment. Or maybe I should keep them until they release FF upgrade for M8 in the future. I hope by the time that happen I will be better photographer.

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[patashnik]

Well, I am a prof, and a well known one. I know what I'm talking about. Take for example the parliament in Holland. Photographers shoot there nowadays at ISO 2000 or 2500. With their Nikons and Canons. Very good results. Leica? 1250 is already bad. And that's what art directors can see also. There are many more examples of low light conditions photography. Something leica used to be good in, but now they are far behind the others, as I wrote. Besides the slow speed of the camera, this Iso issue is a main reason for most professionals not to work with Leica, despite the handy size of the camera. Is that not bad? The majority of the profs refusing to work with Leica? A slow and bad ISO M camera, and nothing digital for long lenses. That is the situation. When other camera's can do things in certain situations, things that are a great progress in development, others has to follow.

I did not suggest a possible upgrade for free. I just wrote that if Leica itself speaks about a camera for a lifetime, and have upgrades now for 1300 euro, it would be correct to tell us if a new sensor is to be planned for the next upgrade, which I think is an obligation. Otherwise the 1300 euro is wasted money when next year the M9 will arrive with finally a sensor much better than this one. If you cannot understand that...

 

Dear Roel,

You have listed quite a few reasons why you shouldn't be shooting with the M8. My mum says you ought to reconsider the M8 and shoot using one of those spiffy DSLR's. She's also quite sure that neither me nor her gives a toss about professionals using the M8 or not.

 

But I have an upgrade path for you: Sell the M8/M8.2 and buy the M9/M8.3 or whatever it will be called. Tada! Instant gratification. Aren't I a clever one?

 

Best regards,

patashnik

[SJP]

Feeding time

 

Take for example the parliament in Holland. Photographers shoot there nowadays at ISO 2000 or 2500. With their Nikons and Canons.

 

I know that most Dutch politicians are not particularly lucid (esp. in the Verdonk & Wilders camp) but I have yet to see evidence that they actually work in the dark. Buy an M8 & love it to death would be my advice from a prof. to a pro (at least I think that is what you mean). If the sensor gets upgraded or upgradeble in terms of ISO that would be nice but not a major neccesity.

[Ted99]

Abot ISO.

I have noticed that Hasselblad 50Mpixel sensor dont have more than 400 ISO and Phase One have 800 ISO.

Why ?

This stuff is very expensive.

Maybe the pictures turns out better whith the CCD sensor than CMOS ?

Thats á feeling I have. I think the colors and sharpness is better with M8 compared with Nikon 300.

[luigi bertolotti]

Personally, I PREFER that Leica hasn't announced a new sensor ... this would have someway lowered the happiness I feel using my M8 ...

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By a marketing point of view, the M8.2 is well balanced announcement... no revolution, something better, an almost complete upgrade possible... To DECLARE the future availabilty of a sensor upgrade, without, of course, giving other specs (givig them would mean it's ready) should have simply STOPPED M8 - M8.2 sales... which absolutely need a quick increase (see the last financials release). Almost surely some day there will be a new sensor (if not, this would mean that the digital M line is a flop): shall the upgrade be possible ? We'll see... the technical issues can be very complicated... probably, even in Solms they could not give a sure answer, nowadays... it isn't a technology they develop and control.

[tomasis7]

Personally, I PREFER that Leica hasn't announced a new sensor ... this would have someway lowered the happiness I feel using my M8 ...

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By a marketing point of view, the M8.2 is well balanced announcement... no revolution, something better, an almost complete upgrade possible... To DECLARE the future availabilty of a sensor upgrade, without, of course, giving other specs (givig them would mean it's ready) should have simply STOPPED M8 - M8.2 sales... which absolutely need a quick increase (see the last financials release). Almost surely some day there will be a new sensor (if not, this would mean that the digital M line is a flop): shall the upgrade be possible ? We'll see... the technical issues can be very complicated... probably, even in Solms they could not give a sure answer, nowadays... it isn't a technology they develop and control.

 

Yeah I wish Leica to be in very slow snail pace. Especially in digital age. I could check if there is anything new once every 5 years. I wish it would be true for me but I can imagine pain of Canon user who constantly is worrying whatever he has to have upgrade for today? Tomorrow? Biff steaks? next fish?

[ljclark]

I can surely "trot" down to any auto dealer and...assuming the overall body style hasn't changed for a complete redesign...they will be happy to oblige me by ordering the parts and installing any and all items with whatever modifications they require, mechanical or cosmetic, that have been upgraded since my model was introduced...including the engine and transmission...as long as I'm willing to pay for it.

 

Actually -- you may find that the official dealers will not make mods. Product liability being what it is these days -- even on the east side of the pond -- you are less likely to find an official dealer or repair station willing to do the work...and you might need to sign a pile of releases if they do agree.

[Guest Roel]

Feeding time

 

 

 

I know that most Dutch politicians are not particularly lucid (esp. in the Verdonk & Wilders camp) but I have yet to see evidence that they actually work in the dark. Buy an M8 & love it to death would be my advice from a prof. to a pro (at least I think that is what you mean). If the sensor gets upgraded or upgradeble in terms of ISO that would be nice but not a major neccesity.

 

What an answers! Evidence? In the parliament one needs f 2,8 in most situations, sometimes more, and on ISO 1250 the shutter speeds is than 1/90. In a lot of cases one cannot go lower, because of the movements. As we know ISO 1250 is bad with a Leica M.

But there are much more situations in which one needs more ISO than 1250. I worked twenty years with Leica M 4 and later 6, and in a lot of reports it was necessary to use film at ASA 1600. ( 1/30-f2.8) Mind you, I only used that speeds when strictly necessary. Still it is the case now and than. With the difference that the digital noise is ugly to see, more than the grain of films was. Leica now is simply far behind the others.

But I will stop my contributions here again. Another prof, the war photographer, gave you already many arguments why the M is no longer good enough for photojournalists. Maybe for a small part, who have to shoot in easy light conditions, and do not have to work fast.

And of course for worshippers who react on criticism as if their mum was insulted. The fact that most profs agree that Leica M is very handy as size, and that Leica has beautiful lenses, but that there are to many shortcomings to buy one, is the best proof that the concept is out. Anyway, Leica has to be very quick in producing a new sensor, because the others will also continue their improvements. Leica will be aware of that. Therefore the whole upgrade program is a wast of money. And probably 5000 for the M8/2 as well. Point taken? -Roel.

[Guest DuquesneG]

Actually -- you may find that the official dealers will not make mods. Product liability being what it is these days -- even on the east side of the pond -- you are less likely to find an official dealer or repair station willing to do the work...and you might need to sign a pile of releases if they do agree.

 

Actually, since I prefer not to talk out my rear if at all possible, the only reason I said what I did is because my neighbor across the street had his '05 Mercedes (don't ask me what model, I've never owned a foreign car) "upgraded" to an '08 model at the official Mercedes dealership nearby. They changed both the entire front and rear clips, lights and all, and modified the exhaust pipes (the newer model has twin chrome tips that jut out of cutouts under the rear bumper). They also installed a completely new dash section because the newer radio with navigation wouldn't fit the old one, and I think they may have changed the entire console as well. Also changed the wheels to the new style. He asked them if they could change his 5-speed auto transmission for the 7-speed in the latest model, and they said "sure", but they would have to change the engine and rear axle too ( because they were all emissions-certified together)--which they were willing to do, but my neighbor wasn't, because it was cost-prohibitive. Those mods he did have done cost him around $15,000 if I remember correctly, which was half what he'd have had to pay if he sold his car and bought a new one. With the engine and transmission, he said it wasn't worth it. I think the guy is nuts, but the point is, you're wrong, the dealer was glad to take his money.

[BrianP]

Dear Roel,

I asked my mum and she said I shouldn't care. So I decided to go out and use my camera today, instead of worrying about the sensor technology of tomorrow.

 

Best regards,

patashnik

 

And that is what it is all about ! Taking pictures.

 

BrianP

[pklein]

Part of the problem is that Leica M has always been known as an available-light camera. By film standards, an M8 with fast lenses still is. ISO 320 is beautiful, 640 is grittier in the shadows, but still quite usable with proper care. 1250 gets into "maybe" territory, depending on your standards. 2500 is marginal at best.

 

A bit of work with Neat Image, Noise Ninja et al puts the M8 back in the running, but it takes time a photojournalist can't afford, so C and N are perceived better. Despite the fact that if you use C or N, you are using bigger, heavier, noisier cameras with mirror slap and blackout, an anti-aliasing filter, and autofocus that may not be as accurate as a good rangefinder photographer under difficult conditions.

 

Trade-offs.

 

I hope for a better, upgradable sensor. I am also afraid that if and when it comes, it will be priced at a point that few can afford, and with limitations that "encourage" one to just give up and buy an M9--just as Leica is now leaving firmware-based features out of the upgrades to "encourage" us to buy the M8.2. At which point, I'm probably out of the game.

 

The M8 was a major financial stretch for me. I can't spend that much again for a long time. I bought the M8 because I already have the lenses, and I saw no reason to liquidate my M system and spend as much or more on a DSLR system I would like far less.

 

I'm very happy with the camera. It shoots much like my film Ms, and the level of detail it produces at 160 and 320 is astounding. Yes, I do wish I could have ISO 320 quality at 1250. If Leica eventually offers a sensor upgrade that can give me that, but only at the price of a decent car, I'm probably out. And if somebody else offers a better digital RF, I might very well go that route. I love using Leica stuff, but my real "loyalty" is to the rangefinder way, not to the firm of Leica specifically.

 

To me, this is the real potential deal-breaker for Leica. Not the IR problem. Not the gritty 1250 and 2500 ISO. It's the idea that the Leica name is so valuable that it can support unlimited pricing forever.

 

If Leica came up with a new sensor with high ISO like C and N's, and we could upgrade to it for $1000 - $1500, I'd do it. If it was much more than that, forget it. Buying a brand new camera for $6000+, also forget it.

 

I suspect that eventually somebody is going to come up with a competitive digital RF. Maybe C or N, more likely Zeiss in partnership with a Japanese firm. If that happens, Leica is in for the fight of its life, because their "Brand Culture" will only go so far.

 

Perhaps Leica (camera division) can survive strictly as a prestige boutique brand. But they are going to be selling fewer and fewer cameras, ever more expensive, to fewer and fewer people. And I don't think that's what Dr. Kauffman wants. It sure isn't what I want.

 

--Peter

[haribo]

I'm reading these kind of posts for some time now and never felt the need to say anything.

This time though, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth of an ego trip.

 

Frankly, I like the sensor just fine. Yes, I wouldn't mind 16MP but ONLY if Leica would keep the actual size of the sensor as is.

Bottomline for me is the fact that RF photography is not exactly a native territory for big tele lenses. (Let's leave that to C and N;)

So, having a factor of 1.3 does actually give the M8 a nice reach. I do welcome this fact. Period.

 

In terms of the sensor's quality compared to cameras from C or N or bigger one's with digital back's, let me say this.

I picked up the M8 in August of last year. In those short 12 month I accomplished this with the oh, so inadequate M8:

 

• Top 10 in Zeiss contest (yeah, not all that big but still worth mentioning)

 

• 2 Applied Arts Awards in Photography (now that's big in North America, - particular interesting for Leica since the other competitors commonly use Phase One digital backs or other one's with superior sensors.)

 

• and last but not least, a 3 double page article about me and my work in the current issue of LFI (6/2008).

 

Sorry for my little ego trip here. That is not usually my style but let's face it, everyone who is complaining about the shortcomings of the M8, maybe it's time to blame their own shortcomings instead.

 

cheers, haribo (a.k.a. Harald Benz)

[delander †]

That is well put Peter and sums up the problems facing Leica and current users with a bag of lenses.

 

Jeff

[paga]

I suspect Leica could change some parts in the M8 to those in the M8.2 and offer this option as an upgrade but perhaps the cost would be so high as to make purchasing a new M8.2 cheaper.

 

Jeff

 

I agree, as it make perfect sense for Leica to try to give incentive to go to the latest instead of keeping the upgrading costs below full replacement, it's basic marketing, applies to any consumer goods, especially those with fast technology curves such as computers and electronics. So it's tempting to blame the sensors from 3 years ago for a bad picture because there are out there Hasselbald bodies shooting at 50Mpixel or some Nikon ones shooting full frame at 4K ISO... not quite I think, because it's not enough to take a good picture.

 

One major difference here with our cameras: the body is by far NOT the only reason we love this gear, it's the lens that make Leica so special. So as long as I can preserve my lens investment and it's the top of the line, I can live with a body that may look like 3 years behind the japanese brands on the spec sheet, but if I can still maximize the use of my perfect lenses, I don't see the need to feel frustrated for upgrades of the body every 6 months IMHO

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Personally I have tried the Nikon D3, the Canon XYZ, etc... my M lenses don't fit on them, I could not find where to set aperture and speed without playing with 20 menus and buttons, and worse I could not carry such large gear around, call me lazy, so I could not care less if these guys can shoot at 10,000 ISO, it's not for moi. These are excellent cameras no contest, but for a different public

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[Iron Flatline]

Abot ISO.

I have noticed that Hasselblad 50Mpixel sensor dont have more than 400 ISO and Phase One have 800 ISO.

Why ?

This stuff is very expensive.

Maybe the pictures turns out better whith the CCD sensor than CMOS ?

Thats á feeling I have. I think the colors and sharpness is better with M8 compared with Nikon 300.

The Hasselblad and the P1 backs have a base ISO of 25, so that's two extra stops. 800 then would be like 3200 on a dSLR in terms of light sensitivity magnification.

 

I shot with a Leaf Aptus back (on a Leaf AFi) and at ISO 200 found it to be unusable.

 

EDIT: ... and like a lot of others here, I will upgrade or replace my M8 as soon as they roll out a more sensitive sensor.

[bertraaphorst]

I'm reading these kind of posts for some time now and never felt the need to say anything.

This time though, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth of an ego trip.

 

Frankly, I like the sensor just fine. Yes, I wouldn't mind 16MP but ONLY if Leica would keep the actual size of the sensor as is.

Bottomline for me is the fact that RF photography is not exactly a native territory for big tele lenses. (Let's leave that to C and N;)

So, having a factor of 1.3 does actually give the M8 a nice reach. I do welcome this fact. Period.

 

In terms of the sensor's quality compared to cameras from C or N or bigger one's with digital back's, let me say this.

I picked up the M8 in August of last year. In those short 12 month I accomplished this with the oh, so inadequate M8:

 

• Top 10 in Zeiss contest (yeah, not all that big but still worth mentioning)

 

• 2 Applied Arts Awards in Photography (now that's big in North America, - particular interesting for Leica since the other competitors commonly use Phase One digital backs or other one's with superior sensors.)

 

• and last but not least, a 3 double page article about me and my work in the current issue of LFI (6/2008).

 

Sorry for my little ego trip here. That is not usually my style but let's face it, everyone who is complaining about the shortcomings of the M8, maybe it's time to blame their own shortcomings instead.

 

cheers, haribo (a.k.a. Harald Benz)

 

Yes, that's really the only thing what matters: the M8 has a superb image quality, also because of the very good glass . It is for me a fine piece of equipment, compact, fast, easy to use compared to the N and C dsrl, which are overloaded with features and bulky menus.

Just take amazing pictures with it, and enjoy it. But remember that a good photographer also makes amazing and award winning pictures with Canon or Nikon .........

 

Albert