A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation

[guidomo]

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I do not believe in the concept of the perfect camera (or any product for that matter). All the people claiming they would not upgrade to a FF M9 if it came out should wait until it is actually available. They may eat their words.

[fotografr]

That is if one can spend $10K for an extremely low depth of field lens (or $6K for a used one with focusing problems). Sorry but this sounds a bit like when a GOP politician introduced Cindy McCain as a "small businesswoman."

 

Agreed, if one was purchasing a new one right now. Mine isn't old--I got it new a bit more than 2 years ago for $2800. It has no focusing problems whatsoever--not even the acclaimed "focus shift." The fact remains, I can hand hold my M8 with any of my lenses at considerably slower shutter speeds than my Canon 5Ds (comparable in size and weight to the Nikons). This is at least a 2 stop advantage that still brings me from 3200 ISO down to 800 (or 640) in practical terms. I don't think this is unusual for those of us who are used to rangefinder shooting.

 

I think the guy introducing Cindy McCain must have been referring to her stature.

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[lct]

I think I'm right in saying that an M8 + new Noctilux is heavier than a Nikon D700 + 50mm f/1.4...

I don't know but the D700 is rather heavy per se and those lenses are hardly comparable to be fair. The only reasonable way to compare a FF 50 is to choose a crop 35 IMHO. This way, the lightest FF DSLR remains bulkier and heavier than the biggest DRF so far.

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[marknorton]

LCT, your clock is missing.....!!

 

The new Noctilux is heavy though - 700g.

[haribo]

Whenever someone here on the forum has a criticism about some Leica equipment, someone would come round and tell them to become a better photographer rather than ask for better equipment. If equipment had nothing to do with the quality of the photos one can take, we'd all be using [insert your favoutite PNS camera model].

 

First and foremost, the M8 is like every other camera, a tool. Nothing else. Period.

I use it because it's a digital camera that allows me to use some of the best glass there is. Not because it comes with a flashy Leica logo that many mistake for a status symbol.

 

Like with any tool, the M8 enables you to do the task at hand. Yet, like with any other tool such as, let's say hammer and chisel, it doesn't come with a magic button that turns you into Michelangelo.

[guidomo]

I use it because it's a digital camera that allows me to use some of the best glass there is.

 

Yes and with a crop sensor you carry more of this glass than necessary. Wasted Leica glass so to speak. That was my initial point but you chose to stray away from the subject and accuse me of just being a bad photographer - for reasons you still have not explained to me.

 

But I still like Haribo

[Shootist]

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Yes and with a crop sensor you carry more of this glass than necessary. Wasted Leica glass so to speak. That was my initial point but you chose to stray away from the subject and accuse me of just being a bad photographer - for reasons you still have not explained to me.

 

But I still like Haribo

What the heck are you talking about. Why would a cropped, smaller then film, sensor camera make you carry more glass then a camera that had a film size sensor.

Really that statement make no sense.

 

I have to go do a reality check.

[haribo]

Yes and with a crop sensor you carry more of this glass than necessary. Wasted Leica glass so to speak. That was my initial point but you chose to stray away from the subject and accuse me of just being a bad photographer - for reasons you still have not explained to me.

 

But I still like Haribo

 

First, I'm with Shootist here ... What the heck are you talking about????

And secondly, I am not accusing you of anything. All I said is that the M8 is like every other camera a tool. How good a tool depends on the person using it.

 

Btw, clearly you're not happy with the M8, so why the heck are you using it?

If I would share your complains, I wouldn't hesitate for a second and get a camera better suited to my needs.

[barjohn]

I think he means that to obtain the field of view of a 28mm you need to actually carry a 21mm and so on. Thus the more glass statement. You pay for a 28mm but get a 35mm.

 

The notion that having the best glass is so critical is kind of funny because you must evaluate the entire system. If the sensor can't really use the capabilities of the glass adequately why pay for capability the camera can't use? I have been studying numerous photos i took with the M8 and Leica glass and comparing them against similar photos taken with both a Nikon D90 and the kit lens (18-55) and a 50/1.8 prime as well as the Panasonic G1 and frankly the M8 images don't have as much detail. The colors are different and the saturation is different but certainly not more detailed (at low ISO). At high ISO there isn't any comparison to the images produced by the Nikon.

 

Another post talked about dynamic range but the M8 doesn't fare that well in the DPReview tests.

ISO M8 D90

200 8.4 8.3

400 7.9 8.6

800 7.5 8.4

1600 6.6 8.4

3200 5.9 8.4

 

So how is the M8 better? This doesn't take into account active d or other features. I used ISO equivalents M8-160=ISO200, M8-320= ISO400 and so on.

[guidomo]

I love my M8 and I would not swap it for anything on the market today. I have a big bunch of lenses which I am hoping to put to better use by getting a FF sensor M one day.

 

What I hate on this forum is that people do not permit any kind of criticism of Leica. And if you do not criticise then they would even take your wishful thinking in future products as criticism, just to be able to bash other people.

 

And my feeling is that if people run out of arguments then they accuse other people of being bad photographers who just own Leica to show off ("because of the Leica dot"). Go back and read you've written and perhaps you'll see what I mean.

 

And on the technical issue, what's so difficult to understand about the "cropped sensor on 135-film-type lens" problem? Our M8 sensor only sees 57% of a film image that the lens is projecting. In other words, a lens specifically made for the M8 could be 40% smaller and lighter than what you are carrying around and still provide similar image quality (bar the optical corner effects one poster mentioned - but these are small with Leica lenses).

[jimleicam3]

I guess I really must be odd, because I don't miss something that I never had....a full frame sensor. The bottom line is that almost all of us have never used a full frame sensor digital camera, but yet we all bitch and moan that we would like to have it, when we really don't have any idea what "it" really is!! The M8 is a great camera, yes it has a 1.33 crop, but it is still a great camera. The bottom line is that 96% of us have no idea what a FF can or can not do. And it really won't make a difference to 96% of us. Enjoy what we have, life is short, go back to colored pencils before waiting for Leica to make a FF RF. it may never happen!! Take photos today!! How many of us take photos of family, friends, landscapes, buildings....with our M8's and say...."if this had a FF your birthday party, wedding would be sooo much better" I just feel very lucky to own one of the best cameras (other than that something NASA might make) that has ever been made!!! Kiss your wife and have fun with your camera!!

[dcoombs]

(snipped) Kiss your wife and have fun with your camera!!

 

Or the other way around...

[jkphoto]

... 96% of us have no idea what a FF can or can not do. And it really won't make a difference to 96% of us ...

 

The M8 takes wonderful images which I am not sure will be benefited all that much by a full frame sensor. However, I do miss my 24mm lens being a 24mm lens.

[andybarton]

It would be interesting to do a poll of how many people who use M8s have come from film Ms, and how many people are new entrants to the rangefinder sector.

 

Then it would be interesting to see whether there is any difference in their attitude towards whether a "full frame" digital M would be desirable.

[stunsworth]

I can only speak for myself, but I came from a film M, and I would prefer a full frame sensor, though I'm happy with the sensor in the M8.

[bertraaphorst]

And on the technical issue, what's so difficult to understand about the "cropped sensor on 135-film-type lens" problem? Our M8 sensor only sees 57% of a film image that the lens is projecting. In other words, a lens specifically made for the M8 could be 40% smaller and lighter than what you are carrying around and still provide similar image quality (bar the optical corner effects one poster mentioned - but these are small with Leica lenses).

 

This makes no sense to me. I am glad that I can use all my "135-film-type" lenses on my M8 and that I can use them on my M6 If I want. It would cost me a fortune to buy a couple of your 40% smaller and lighter lenses that would result in similar image quallity ...

 

BTW, my words taste good ...

 

 

 

Albert

[lct]

It would be interesting to do a poll of how many people who use M8s have come from film Ms, and how many people are new entrants to the rangefinder sector....

And how many people who don't use M8s because they're waiting for a FF DRF.

[Kasimir]

It would be interesting to do a poll of how many people who use M8s have come from film Ms, and how many people are new entrants to the rangefinder sector.

 

Then it would be interesting to see whether there is any difference in their attitude towards whether a "full frame" digital M would be desirable.

 

I'd be interested in that poll, too.

[Guest bwcolor]

It would be interesting to do a poll of how many people who use M8s have come from film Ms, and how many people are new entrants to the rangefinder sector.

 

Then it would be interesting to see whether there is any difference in their attitude towards whether a "full frame" digital M would be desirable.

__________________

Cheers,

 

Andy

 

I have used film Leicas and other 35mm film cameras for decades, including M7s.

 

I am totally in favor of a "full frame" digital Leica, for the simple reason that my lenses based on the angles of view they give on FF film cameras will be what I am accustomed to. Furthermore, those angles of view, from wide to telephoto, have been standards in camera/lens design for many, many decades, regardless of type of camera or format. One simply cannot say that the M8 cropped format is fully suitable to the existing Leica lenses nor to the history of photographic design and usage.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Shootist]

I have used film Leicas and other 35mm film cameras for decades, including M7s.

 

I am totally in favor of a "full frame" digital Leica, for the simple reason that my lenses based on the angles of view they give on FF film cameras will be what I am accustomed to. Furthermore, those angles of view, from wide to telephoto, have been standards in camera/lens design for many, many decades, regardless of type of camera or format. One simply cannot say that the M8 cropped format is fully suitable to the existing Leica lenses nor to the history of photographic design and usage.

 

What format were you use to before you got into taking pictures?

Did you get use to the 35mm film size once you started taking pictures and what did you have to deal with using 35mm film compared to whatever your eye saw before?

 

FF FF FF, is whatever the camera you are using captures. Not what you are use to.

The M8 does not crop it's sensor, it is full frame. Just the frame is slightly smaller then 35mm film.

Why not go larger format? Then you can do the math in the opposite direction where a 80-90mm lens is a standard lens and a 35 is WWWWide Angle.