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A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation


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The M8 sensor is better than the sensors in my Canon 5D and 1Ds Mk2. The image quality of CCD sensors is known to be superior to CMOS but more prone to noise (or was, perhaps recent research has helped the CMOS, they were originally only chosen for tasks where price was more important than quality).

If you are a specialist in taking pictures in dark places without flash or lighting rigs a Nikon or perhaps Canon would be a suitable choice.

If you take photographs in normal lighting conditions the M8 will yield superior results in my experience.

I used to shoot Kodachrome 64. 160 iso is fast as far as I am concerned!

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If you are a specialist in taking pictures in dark places without flash or lighting rigs a Nikon or perhaps Canon would be a suitable choice.

If you take photographs in normal lighting conditions the M8 will yield superior results in my experience.

 

I disagree to this statement. I prefer the M8. It's very suitable for available light.

 

Regards

Steve

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I disagree to this statement. I prefer the M8. It's very suitable for available light.

 

Regards

Steve

 

 

I agree

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Define Full Format?

 

is this 35mm film size, or 6x6 or plate camera size?

 

Why would most current M8(.2) users need it anyway, and with "need" I do mean "need" and not want for the sake of wanting.

 

Ans why would Leica be obliged to provide Full-Format digital M's. For the all the people that "want" and the very few that "need" there will be the S2 .... perfect solution I would say.

 

And IQ at 320 or more will/might eventually be solved bit by bit by means of firmware, and then only when the time is ripe. Look at C5d and N700 images at 3200 closely, not very pretty... no noise indeed, very little "honest" detail either.

 

If all your shots are printed to 180cm ... granted their might be better tools than the M8, until then I don't really see the issue..... other than the "want" one

And I know about "wanting" as opposed to "needing"

 

I repeat myself by stating "don't get me started on handbags and shoes"

 

:-) I

In this whole discussion, I like this contribution the most, because it is a nail on the head.

It separates dreams from needs. Without having dreams left, life would be boring.

 

A FF is such an Utopia that will most likely never happen, but that keeps firing our emotions and that seems to come from quite deep under the skin.

Using DOF as argument, is almost irrelevant, as Jaap has pointed out, so what is left is just .... ??

 

Hans

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There is no such thing as a crop camera [unless you mean a camera for photographing crops]. There is no such thing as 'FF', unless all digital cameras are 'Full Frame'; being that their sensors are the full-frame size they are.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

This are the "normal" facts I think:

 

value = 1: full frame sensor or 35 mm format

value > 1: cropfactor ( crop with regard to 35 mm format)

value < 1: FLM or focal length multiplier (wider image than the 35 mm format)

 

I agree with Jaapv: "1.25 crop is not the same as APS-C (1.6 crop) To pin esthetic differences in DOF solely on the crop factor when sizes are as close as 1.25 to 1.0 is an extreme oversimplification of the highly complex concept of DOF."

 

DOF is indeed a very complex concept. In all the arguments and discussions you have to calculate and bear in mind that DOF depends of various things:

 

Focal lenght, in fact the angle of the lens

Circle of confusion (COF/COC), 0.030 mm is the reference COC for 35mm format.

Used Diaphragm, the opening of the lens

Distance to your subject,

and Size of the sensor (Crop factor)

 

And perhaps there is more??

 

 

Albert

 

Aruba Photos - Aruba PhotoRefresh

Flickr: bert.raaphorst's Photostream

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Hi Chris,

 

Focal lenght, in fact the angle of the lens

Circle of confusion (COF/COC), 0.030 mm is the reference COC for 35mm format.

Used Diaphragm, the opening of the lens

Distance to your subject,

and Size of the sensor (Crop factor)

 

 

Albert

 

yes, but assuming that angle of lense, coc, opening and distance are the same it depends on the crop factor.

 

I can't follow Your logic. :confused:

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There is no such thing as a crop camera [unless you mean a camera for photographing crops]. There is no such thing as 'FF', unless all digital cameras are 'Full Frame'; being that their sensors are the full-frame size they are.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

This are the "normal" facts I think:

 

value = 1: full frame sensor or 35 mm format

value > 1: cropfactor ( crop with regard to 35 mm format)

value < 1: FLM or focal length multiplier (wider image than the 35 mm format)

 

This is all I wrote about the quote of Chris.

 

Albert

 

Aruba Photos - Aruba PhotoRefresh

Flickr: bert.raaphorst's Photostream

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the longer I use my M8, the more I am convinced that a FF is not what I would want.

The CCD size is very nice, not 24x36... yes,

and so what?

After so many years of 8x10" 4x5" 6x6cm and 24x36mm, I find a new "fresh air explosion" thinking only about seeing and shooting.

Do we need to compare sensor sizes in order to recognize the qualities inherent the M8 RFC?

I'd say no.

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I am perfectly happy with the quality produced with the M8 sensor size. The only reason I would like a full frame sensor is so I don't have to be constantly mentally adjusting the field of view for the different focal lengths.

 

Coming from a lifetime with film 35mm I can mentally picture a 50mm field of view, as well as 35, 28, 90, etc., before I lift the camera up. While with the M8 a quick approximation is to take one step up (28->35, 35->50, etc) it is not the same.

 

Small problem, I know, and I'll get over it... But it would be a reason for me to switch given a choice.

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When I had my M8 I tended to believe some of the stuff on this forum about the sharpness and level of detail captured by the M8 with the superb Leica lenses as long as ISO was below 1250. I sold off my M8 because I believed (and still do) that the M8 is on track to be worth a fraction of what I paid for it ($4,795) within the next year and I wanted to minimize my loss. Further, I wasn't convinced that Leica had solved their issues in the realm of electronics and reliability (I was on camera number 3) and seeing issues on the M8.2 further convinces me that I was right. Recently I acquired a Panasonic G1 and a Nikon D90 so I can compare images taken with these cameras to the many images I took with the M8. Some of you may remember the famous $20 bill test one user posted to determine detail. I hate to tell you this but at the same ISO the little Panny G1 captures more detail than the M8. The Nikon beats both of them. As the ISO goes up the spread increases with the Nikon at least 1 f stop better and in some cases 2 f stops better.

 

Some of you will talk about size and weight but both the Nikon and the G1 with lenses with equivalent focal length ranges are lighter than the M8 as a kit or in use. The G1 is actually smaller with 12 MP and slightly better ISO performance and much faster at both focusing and shooting. Then look at the fact that you have vibration reduction to add a couple of stops to your performance and you see low light without flash capability you spend tens of thousands to get with the M8 and have to carry a very heavy package around to boot. As to framing with the RF viewfinder on the M8 and its relative brightness, it is very hard to focus in low light. Much to my amazement the G1 will give you an image in almost total darkness (yes a bit grainy, but an image none the less) and it will focus very quickly for you in light that you could not hope to focus an M8. The Nikon does it all a bit better and faster but it is bulkier, though not by much with a small prime lens on it.

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So what did you get for the money you realised when selling the M8 at the right time? Stocks? You wise investment must have paid off :D

 

No I foolishly spent it on more camera gear (well not all of it) I actually put some in the bank as cash reserves. I may go back into the stock market soon but not quite yet. I think there is more bad news to come yet. And if it is bad here, it will be worse in the EU so Leica will have a hard time surviving, I think. I was talking to my sister that works for AutoCad and she was telling me about the shocking reaction some executives there had when the company went to borrow about $1.5M for a small project and were turned down by the banks even though they have $1B in cash reserves.

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Because in bad times money looks for safety and the US is still the safest place for money. That is why you have seen the Euro drop from $1.60 to $1.28 in a matter of less than 2 months. Look at the Brittish Pound as well ($1.57 vs over $2.05). While oil has significantly declined from its high of around $147 a barrel to around $63.89 a barrel, the savings are less for the EU due to the drop in exchange rate thus making the problem worse. Because of these complex interactions the European economy typically lags the US. When we hit bottom you are still on your way down and we are coming out when you hit bottom.

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Because in bad times money looks for safety and the US is still the safest place for money.

Would you quote the source of this wisdom? From where I am standing the safest place for my money seems to be China...At least the Chinese save instead of running up debts.

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When we hit bottom you are still on your way down and we are coming out when you hit bottom.

Thanks ... great to see that you will come out faster of a crisis that you generated by living on the world's credit. Hope you learn something this time : work first, make money and then spend.

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