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Guest Roel

A new sensor that can be upgraded is now an obligation

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Guest Roel

It is a big disappointment that Leica did´nt come with a new sensor for the M8. Surely when we look at Nikon and now also Canon. ISO´s of 4000 or even higher while the quality of the images is perfect. And that´s what it is all about in digital photography. Not the color of the camera, not so much the sound of the shutter, but above all the quality of the sensor. Considering the price of a M8 and lately of the M8/2, and comparing that price too what N and C deliver for the same or less money (on the point of sensors), Leica is now far, far behind. Too far behind. Still there are advantages of rangefinder camera´s. But I´m afraid that those advantages are no longer enough, certainly not in the professional area. ( I can give many examples).

A certain time ago Leica spoke about a camera for a life time. That was the M8. We do have upgrades now for the shutter, framelines, and some glass. If one buys it all the price is 1300 euro. The camera was, lets say, 4000. Together 5300 euro.

Suppose Leica will come next year with a M9 with a much better sensor. Not possible to upgrade in the M8, or M8-2. Than you bought for three or one year a very poor camera on the point of ISO's, for a very, very high price. And Leica has to come with a new sensor in a year, otherwise they will be defenitely placed in the dangerzone, without escape.

Leica is in my opinion therefore obliged to its customers, who already have been so loyal to the firm ( ir ), to produce a sensor that can be upgraded in the M8´s. And they also are obliged to speak themselves out on that point. We are customers, not sponsors for new developments.

 

Have a nice day, Roel.

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Guest Roel

It is a big disappointment that Leica did´nt come with a new sensor for the M8. Surely when we look at Nikon and now also Canon. ISO´s of 4000 or even higher while the quality of the images is perfect. And that´s what it is all about in digital photography. Not the color of the camera, not so much the sound of the shutter, but above all the quality of the sensor. Considering the price of a M8 and lately of the M8/2, and comparing that price too what N and C deliver for the same or less money (on the point of sensors), Leica is now far, far behind. Too far behind. Still there are advantages of rangefinder camera´s. But I´m afraid that those advantages are no longer enough, certainly not in the professional area. ( I can give many examples).

A certain time ago Leica spoke about a camera for a life time. That was the M8. We do have upgrades now for the shutter, framelines, and some glass. If one buys it all the price is 1300 euro. The camera was, lets say, 4000. Together 5300 euro.

Suppose Leica will come next year with a M9 with a much better sensor. Not possible to upgrade in the M8, or M8-2. Than you bought for three or one year a very poor camera on the point of ISO's, for a very, very high price. And Leica has to come with a new sensor in a year, otherwise they will be defenitely placed in the dangerzone, without escape.

Leica is in my opinion therefore obliged to its customers, who already have been so loyal to the firm ( ir ), to produce a sensor that can be upgraded in the M8´s. And they also are obliged to speak themselves out on that point. We are customers, not sponsors for new developments.

 

Have a nice day, Roel.

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It is a big disappointment that Leica did´nt come with a new sensor for the M8. .. look at Nikon and now also Canon. ISO´s of 4000 or even higher..... And that´s what it is all about in digital photography. Not the color of the camera, not so much the sound of the shutter....

 

Roel - I will have a nice day because I'm tired and happy after being out yesterday with the M8 shooting coastal landscapes, and being thankful that I no longer am forced to carry heavy view-camera equipment to difficult locations.

 

Your post is loaded with presumptions about what constitutes professional equipment which I simply disagree with. The files from the M8 are capable of considerable enlargement, so I have to wonder how giant you need to print your museum-size prints? Maybe for you, the M8 should have been introduced with a 6mpx. sensor with larger photo-sites to gain the extra ISOs you seem to crave, but remember that a technology jump was needed to solve the problem of light fall of the current size of M8 sensor and a 36x24 mm sensor was not then an option. Me? I have no problems using a tripod when necessary, as I did when shooting long exposures [20 minutes plus] at night using 50 ISO. OK, I used to shoot jazz a long time ago, but managed to make a lot of work by using a maximum rating of 1000 ISO.

 

For my needs, for professional quality results I'll take file clarity or even shutter quietness over high ISO any day. And I would have no hesitation in using a DSLR system with lower pixel density if I really needed to motordrive away at 4000 ISO. Whilst I agree with you that the roadmap of Leica pricing is off-putting, the current sensor remains a high quality one within the 'limitations' we all know. I'm all for being critical of Leica, but just not from your perspective.

 

................ Chris

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Guest DuquesneG
Surely when we look at Nikon and now also Canon. ISO´s of 4000 or even higher while the quality of the images is perfect. And that´s what it is all about in digital photography.

 

Gee, and all this time I thought it was about good photography. Thanks for clearing that up

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I think we have a 'new' troll. It is noted.

 

At the very least, I am reminded of 'poor worker's always blame their tools'.

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Lets look at all the digital cameras out there that have offered any kind of hardware-based upgrades.

 

Nikon with the D1X buffer...

 

Uh...

 

(Someone help me here!! Other examples?)

 

Despite all the Leica mystique, it is still a consumer item. You bought it, and Leica doesn't owe you a bunch of upgrades that you wouldn't pay for anyway. They don't owe you a 24 x 36 mm sensor. When you bought your M8 (BTW...You DO own a Leica M8, right?) you bought a smaller sensor and were fully aware of the optical/engineering decisions that went into Leica's decisions to use the smaller sensor. I surely was aware. I had to think about it for awhile, but I made the decision to buy and don't regret it one bit.

 

Trot down to your Opel/Ford/BMW/Skoda dealer and demand that your four-year-old car get upgraded to the newest seats and safety equipment. Demand from the manufacturer of your fridge that they install the newer doors with the digitally-controlled icemaker onto your 10-year old model (and fridges, btw, last longer than most digital cameras).

 

(Why is it that the whiners never seem to put out. When I've sold cameras and gear on eBay, the people that pester me with sniveling little questions NEVER actually win the bid.)

 

And if all fails, use the American solution (and rapidly, the European solution)...Sue Leica. If you're right, you'll win.

 

Meanwhile, have some cheese with your whine.

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{snipped}Leica is in my opinion therefore obliged to its customers, who already have been so loyal to the firm ( ir ), to produce a sensor that can be upgraded in the M8´s. And they also are obliged to speak themselves out on that point. We are customers, not sponsors for new developments.

 

Roel, I have to say I was a little disappointed as well. It's a very valid point to want a stop or two more latitude in the shadows, especially as the M8 is capable of producing a superb file due to its high bit depth.

 

The Nikons, certainly, have caught up with the M8 in terms of bit depth and surpassed them in terms of noise. Having said that, no dSLR I've seen yet does a "perfect" image at ISO 4000--there's either lots of noise or lots of noise reduction, which looks pretty smeary

 

Still, what those higher ISOs mean is better performance at lower ISOs, say 1600 or 3200, where the M8 doesn't play very well.

 

So I know this sounds silly, on the heels of Photokina, but I'm hopeful we'll see something significant in the next 18 months.

 

Leica is getting it really right with the digital Ms. From what I've seen so far, I love the new firmware upgrade. A lot of people didn't think Leica would ever enable the M8 for SDHC, but there it is...

 

So when something happens on the sensor level, I suspect Leica will do the right thing, if they can. They have so far.

 

In the meantime, the M8 still delivers exceptional images. Go take pictures with it, and enjoy!

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Lets look at all the digital cameras out there that have offered any kind of hardware-based upgrades.

 

 

Well just beacause nobodies done it before doesn't mean we should not wish for it, it would make the high cost of owning a digital camera more acceptable if we could upgrade it as improved sensors come along, as we do with film cameras.

 

I wish a digital camera would last as long as a car, and you can keep them going more quite a long time even if the engine needs changing and even improve them.

 

Once again someone who dares to suggest the marketing men have got us all hooked on spending money by making our stuff obsolete and useless every few years is mocked and treated rudely

 

Gerry

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Guest DuquesneG
Lets look at all the digital cameras out there that have offered any kind of hardware-based upgrades.

 

Nikon with the D1X buffer...

 

Uh...

 

(Someone help me here!! Other examples?)

 

I believe Kodak offered one for their FF DSLR.

 

Trot down to your Opel/Ford/BMW/Skoda dealer and demand that your four-year-old car get upgraded to the newest seats and safety equipment.

 

From that comment ("demand") you make it sound like Leica is upgrading the M8 for free. I can surely "trot" down to any auto dealer and...assuming the overall body style hasn't changed for a complete redesign...they will be happy to oblige me by ordering the parts and installing any and all items with whatever modifications they require, mechanical or cosmetic, that have been upgraded since my model was introduced...including the engine and transmission...as long as I'm willing to pay for it, just as I must pay Leica to upgrade the M8. In fact, I doubt that my car dealer would refuse to do anything purely because they want me to buy a new one...like Leica has done by disallowing the delayed shutter recock with a shutter upgrade.

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like Leica has done by disallowing the delayed shutter recock with a shutter upgrade.

 

I suspect Leica could change some parts in the M8 to those in the M8.2 and offer this option as an upgrade but perhaps the cost would be so high as to make purchasing a new M8.2 cheaper.

 

Jeff

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hi there!

I was hoping for a new full frame sensor too. Which also would retain wide angles lens quality!!!

I think the problem with a bigger sensor is space in the camera body. If you want to keep it small... then the sensor is a limit. But maybe I am wrong.

When you are bound to certain design and tradition bottom lines in a way you are stuck with them and room for development is very tight.

As for comparing image quality with Canon i.e. I can say working with the MarkIII that if you plan to use wide angles the quality of the image is far from perfect. My 14L looks very very poor on the full frame sensor. It did not on Chromes.

I reckon Leica main interest is retaining image quality for its Leica lenses. This introduces a need to compromise.

There you have the IR issue...

Also, in certain fields of professional photography, noise is very annoying and with the Canon I find that limit is slightly above ISO 320.

But this is obvioulsy a very subjective matter.

I think, when you buy Leica, what you look for is Lens quality and a different image construction approach, given the rangefinder system. Comparing this system with a totally different philosophy, i.e. Canon, I find is a moot point.

One has to enjoy the quality within a system, keeping in mind that expansion always means a change in design. Many people would balk at a drastic design change.

But I agree that in case of a full frame sensor, not being able to upgrade the M8 would be unacceptable. People in Solms must know this very well.

 

IMHO

 

Cheers!

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It is a big disappointment that Leica did´nt come with a new sensor for the M8. Surely when we look at Nikon and now also Canon. ISO´s of 4000 or even higher while the quality of the images is perfect. And that´s what it is all about in digital photography. Not the color of the camera, not so much the sound of the shutter, but above all the quality of the sensor. Considering the price of a M8 and lately of the M8/2, and comparing that price too what N and C deliver for the same or less money (on the point of sensors), Leica is now far, far behind. Too far behind. Still there are advantages of rangefinder camera´s. But I´m afraid that those advantages are no longer enough, certainly not in the professional area. ( I can give many examples).

A certain time ago Leica spoke about a camera for a life time. That was the M8. We do have upgrades now for the shutter, framelines, and some glass. If one buys it all the price is 1300 euro. The camera was, lets say, 4000. Together 5300 euro.

Suppose Leica will come next year with a M9 with a much better sensor. Not possible to upgrade in the M8, or M8-2. Than you bought for three or one year a very poor camera on the point of ISO's, for a very, very high price. And Leica has to come with a new sensor in a year, otherwise they will be defenitely placed in the dangerzone, without escape.

Leica is in my opinion therefore obliged to its customers, who already have been so loyal to the firm ( ir ), to produce a sensor that can be upgraded in the M8´s. And they also are obliged to speak themselves out on that point. We are customers, not sponsors for new developments.

 

Have a nice day, Roel.

 

Dear Roel,

I asked my mum and she said I shouldn't care. So I decided to go out and use my camera today, instead of worrying about the sensor technology of tomorrow.

 

Best regards,

patashnik

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The OP has a point - first we receive this in a personal email:

 

"With the introduction of a perpetual upgrade program, every LEICA M8 is a high-quality digital camera, in which today’s and tomorrow’s users will always be able to incorporate the latest refinements and developments in handling ease and technology. "

 

And the very next camera model has a key features that are not available as an upgrade. You must buy the 8.2 to get these.

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Guest Roel

Well, I am a prof, and a well known one. I know what I'm talking about. Take for example the parliament in Holland. Photographers shoot there nowadays at ISO 2000 or 2500. With their Nikons and Canons. Very good results. Leica? 1250 is already bad. And that's what art directors can see also. There are many more examples of low light conditions photography. Something leica used to be good in, but now they are far behind the others, as I wrote. Besides the slow speed of the camera, this Iso issue is a main reason for most professionals not to work with Leica, despite the handy size of the camera. Is that not bad? The majority of the profs refusing to work with Leica? A slow and bad ISO M camera, and nothing digital for long lenses. That is the situation. When other camera's can do things in certain situations, things that are a great progress in development, others has to follow.

I did not suggest a possible upgrade for free. I just wrote that if Leica itself speaks about a camera for a lifetime, and have upgrades now for 1300 euro, it would be correct to tell us if a new sensor is to be planned for the next upgrade, which I think is an obligation. Otherwise the 1300 euro is wasted money when next year the M9 will arrive with finally a sensor much better than this one. If you cannot understand that...

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Guest DuquesneG
I suspect Leica could change some parts in the M8 to those in the M8.2 and offer this option as an upgrade but perhaps the cost would be so high as to make purchasing a new M8.2 cheaper.

 

Jeff

 

Well, inasmuch as the upgrade costs are dicated solely by Leica, you might be right. Then again I can't remember them ever being squeamish about asking a seemingly insane price for something...or fearing that nobody would pay it.

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Guest DuquesneG
Well, I am a prof, and a well known one. I know what I'm talking about.

 

ROTFLMAO! I'm a prof too, and trust me, even your most kiss-ass students don't really believe that.

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Otherwise the 1300 euro is wasted money when next year the M9 will arrive with finally a sensor much better than this one. If you cannot understand that...

 

I do agree which is why I wont be spending my money on any of the current upgrades. Others may well take a different view. The M8 sensor is old technology but the whole M8 package can still give outstanding results - and overall it is a great camera to use.

 

I'll wait for the M9.

 

Jeff

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Guest Roel

Good point. Students. There has been an investigation among students in schools for photography. Same answers as profs. Leica? No, thank you. For that reason leica in Holland is trying to change that by informing them about the M. Wast of time. Most of them know exactly the differences.

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Guest DuquesneG

Of course they say "no thanks". How many students and photography profs can afford an M8 and new lenses? Maybe students with indulgent daddies. Maybe profs in the med, dental or law schools. If I hadn't worked in the private sector for years, I couldn't have afforded mine on my academic salary either. However your basic statement is uproariously contrived and obviously ridiculous to everyone here. Photography profs are all about art,technique and creative freedom, they would never assert that equipment technology dictates the merit of a photograph.

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Guest Roel
Of course they say "no thanks". How many students and photography profs can afford an M8 and new lenses?

 

That is not the reason. Even those with rich parents does not want one. Overall they said it for reasons I mentioned here. ISO, speed and so on. Behind the new developments.

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