gogopix Posted October 1, 2006 Share #21 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) One further consideration on ISO with M8, esp relative to RD-1 expwerience. The M8 has 16 bit dynamic range or 11-12 stops. As long as the shot is withing the right part of the histogam, you can be one or two stops off and still recover a decent image Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2006 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi gogopix, Take a look here Some More M8 Thoughts. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jonoslack Posted October 1, 2006 Share #22 Posted October 1, 2006 If there are any other photographers for whom this issue of improved EV/ISO control design is important, please chime in (even with a short reply). HI Sean - I'm definitely a 'newbie' as far as Leica is concerned, but my biggest disappointment with the camera is that you cannot change 1. the ISO and 2. the EV compensation without taking your eye from the viewfinder - as you say, there are a number of ways this could be implemented, and it really would be worthwhile to me as well. I'm not suggesting that the situation is the same here, but I was involved with the Kodak 14n / SLRn, which was a good camera, ruined by coming to market with firmware in an unfinished state - I got quite involved with Kodak doing beta testing and making suggestions, possibly they did too many firmware updates, but it turned an 'iffy' camera into one that was very useful in the right circumstances. Let's hope that Leica listen - this seems important to me too. kind regards jono slack (jonathan slack - photographs) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted October 1, 2006 Share #23 Posted October 1, 2006 In the DMR the exposure compensation can be done without taking your eye from the camera (the ISO is more difficult). I over used it since I think I tried to do in it both exposure comp and what an ISO correction would have done. Geronimo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #24 Posted October 1, 2006 HI Sean - I'm definitely a 'newbie' as far as Leica is concerned, but my biggest disappointment with the camera is that you cannot change 1. the ISO and 2. the EV compensation without taking your eye from the viewfinder - as you say, there are a number of ways this could be implemented, and it really would be worthwhile to me as well. I'm not suggesting that the situation is the same here, but I was involved with the Kodak 14n / SLRn, which was a good camera, ruined by coming to market with firmware in an unfinished state - I got quite involved with Kodak doing beta testing and making suggestions, possibly they did too many firmware updates, but it turned an 'iffy' camera into one that was very useful in the right circumstances. Let's hope that Leica listen - this seems important to me too. kind regards jono slack (jonathan slack - photographs) Hi Jono, Interesting parallel. They are listening and have discussed this with me. We'll just have to see if and when it's implemented. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted October 1, 2006 Share #25 Posted October 1, 2006 Sean-- Consider me chiming in. I have an R9/DMR, a whole set of R glass and yesterday shot a wedding with a 5d (and mostly Leica Summicron and Summilux glass, of course;)) Sadly, my R9 is in New Jersey fixing a mount problem We also use 1d series Canons, and we've got money down on the M8s already. Can't wait! I have to tell you--and Leica--one of the most important innovations a company could come up with is this easy-ISO shift (better than auto ISO shift). With the exposure range of these cameras, I'd love to set shutter and aperture and just shift the sensivity by feel! I shot almost without flash yesterday, and went from 200 ISO to 1600 ISO constantly. We did use small studio flashes for the dance floor, but even there you need to adjust up and down as key people get closer to the main light. This would be a perfect thing on Leica bodies. I don't know how to say "please" any stronger than saying that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 1, 2006 Share #26 Posted October 1, 2006 I think it's wise that Leica do not rush this into the first release of the firmware and not just for stability reasons. Whenever my customers ask for customisation in the software I've sold them, I ask them to use it for three months "as is" so that they can fine-tune their requirements. Initial "solutions" are not always optimal. In the same way that it's wise to live in a house for a few months before re-modelling. I think it's worth using the camera for a while to know exactly what we want from any modifications. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted October 1, 2006 Share #27 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) For a photographer like myself, this kind of improvement would be exciting because it *significantly* improves the usability of the camera for the fast-paced existing light work I do regularly (not just weddings but various assignments). Your system is a little different from mine but, either way, moving to a system that can work by feel alone would be a huge improvement. As you say, one would internalize the system so that it became intuitive...One more thought, though. Using the left/right buttons to specify the function and the up/down arrows to adjust the value would make accidental changes less likely. The correct buttons would need to be pressed in the correct order for a value to change. Being able to change EV and ISO simply and quickly is important as I have seen over the last two months after I bought my first digital camera, the Ricoh GR-D, which allows these functions to be changed by two adjustment dials whose fucntions are programmable by the user: indeed the programmable choice for four, rather than two functions, was introduced by Ricoh in a firmware upgrade. Quick EV and ISO changes are particularly important for the type of "fluid" and "loose" shooting style that a digital camera like the M8, which is not like a huge DSLR, is good for, say, with a wide-angle lens with large depth-of-field, which allows one-hand shooting without even using the viewfinder by just looking at the LCD display. It would be a shame toi hamper ease and fluidity for this type of photography by having the current rather cumbersome EV and ISO changing facility of the M8. An example of this type of shooting style can be seen from my GR-D photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/ —Mitch/Potomac, MD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #28 Posted October 1, 2006 I think it's wise that Leica do not rush this into the first release of the firmware and not just for stability reasons. Whenever my customers ask for customisation in the software I've sold them, I ask them to use it for three months "as is" so that they can fine-tune their requirements. Initial "solutions" are not always optimal. In the same way that it's wise to live in a house for a few months before re-modelling. I think it's worth using the camera for a while to know exactly what we want from any modifications. Hi Mark, I'm sure that's true as a general rule. Having worked with two M8s already, however, I'm certain that this change in firmware would improve the camera's functionality for many of us. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted October 1, 2006 Share #29 Posted October 1, 2006 Sean, as a C-Lux user I would have to agree that it's really useful to be able to alter the EV with just a couple of presses of a button. On the C-Lux it's up-arrow to access EV and left- or right-arrow to decrease or increase the exposure in 1/3 stop increments. Perhaps the M8 could learn something from its very little brother Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicamr Posted October 1, 2006 Share #30 Posted October 1, 2006 I am a R8 / DMR user and do appreciate the quick access and speed change of ISO settings. The suggested changes for the M8 sound good to me. Maybe the M8 requires the additional 'wheel & set' button as used on the DMR. I have not read anywhere that the M8 has an acoustic histogram, does it? The acoustic histogram on the DMR enables me to shoot like I would on film. i.e. I don't have to constantly review the LCD to check the exposure! This is a BIG PLUS! I normally use matrix metering (missing on the M8), if the acoustic histogram indicates over exposure I switch to centre weighed metering which normally provides the needed correction. Do any of you wedding photographers use any fill in flash? I use a very subtle amount all the time. This is why I would like low ISO values on the M8 as the sync speed of 1/250th will cause the use of small lens apertures in strong lighting conditions. My additional recommendations for the M8 would be. 1, Replace the USB port with the SD memory slot. I have never used the USB port on the DMR, (does anybody?) and would prefer a faster change of memory card. 2, Switchable matrix, centre, spot metering. Even the digilux 3 has it, why not the M8? Regards Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 1, 2006 Share #31 Posted October 1, 2006 1, Replace the USB port with the SD memory slot. I have never used the USB port on the DMR, (does anybody?) and would prefer a faster change of memory card. Mark yes i do for tethered work and really need to have it plus some folks download from it which i think is a mistake. I agree two cards would be nice though , Raws on one Jpeg the other or a mix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicaleica Posted October 1, 2006 Share #32 Posted October 1, 2006 Just to chime in, I change ISO on the 1Ds2 and the R-D1 VERY often. Anything that can be done to make it easy to change on the M8 would be appreciated. The "Protect" button seems a waste of time to me. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 1, 2006 Share #33 Posted October 1, 2006 Replace the USB port with the SD memory slot. I have never used the USB port on the DMR, (does anybody?) and would prefer a faster change of memory card. I price my developers at $200k/year and I expect the total development/test effort for the sort of firmware changes Sean is proposing to be about 3 man months, call it $50k, excluding the cost of reprinting manuals. If, on the other hand you wanted to change the USB port so that it was an SD card slot instead, you're faced with complete re-design of the electronics, changes to the body casting, assembly procedures, and the rest. Well over $1m. Forget it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #34 Posted October 1, 2006 I price my developers at $200k/year and I expect the total development/test effort for the sort of firmware changes Sean is proposing to be about 3 man months, call it $50k, excluding the cost of reprinting manuals. Hi Mark, I don't have the expertise to know what it would cost to do but I think it should be done. Again, anyone else who would like to see a firmware revision like the one I've described above, please weigh in. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted October 1, 2006 Share #35 Posted October 1, 2006 I'd like to see the firmware change, as long as it doesn't delay the camera. I would like to see it in the first firmware upgrade, though. Sean -- you've said a couple of times that you expect to get a production Leica in a week or so. Does this mean that production Leicas will start becoming available to consumers before the predicted "end of November?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #36 Posted October 1, 2006 I'd like to see the firmware change, as long as it doesn't delay the camera. I would like to see it in the first firmware upgrade, though. Sean -- you've said a couple of times that you expect to get a production Leica in a week or so. Does this mean that production Leicas will start becoming available to consumers before the predicted "end of November?" Hi John, These proposed changes have no affect (and will have no affect) whatsoever on the delivery of the M8s. Leica hasn't even said yes to them. It's just something I'm working on for an upgrade down the road. Press cameras are normally available well in advance of cameras in stores. The idea, naturally, is to have the cameras available when those reviews are published. That works out more for a print publication, though. I'm not privy to any special information about delivery dates other than the end of Nov. Review cameras are on a different schedule. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_l Posted October 1, 2006 Share #37 Posted October 1, 2006 Of course! those who don't want it won't have to use it...and those who do will love love love it! I ride ISO all the time...aperture for desired depth of field, speed to stop motion (or not), and ISO for lowest noise....for every exposure. And as you pointed out, for something like a wedding, that really means for *EVERY* exposure....and when you forget for a minute and go into a dark room from outside, you completely blow the shot. Easier control makes that less likely - I use aperture prioroty much of the time, ISO is the only adjustment I make! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted October 2, 2006 Share #38 Posted October 2, 2006 besides the expected image and build quality of the M8, a primary attraction that has been overlooked lately is the functional similarity to a film camera: Shutter dial, apeture ring on the lens, manual focus...the same concepts that drew many to the digilux 2. I agree with the suggestions Sean has been promoting and would encourage Leica to expand upon the "manual" style as far as possible in the setting of iso and exposure compensation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipotto Posted October 2, 2006 Share #39 Posted October 2, 2006 Quick access to EV is important to me, as its my most used setting on my LC1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 2, 2006 Share #40 Posted October 2, 2006 If there are any other photographers for whom this issue of improved EV/ISO control design is important, please chime in (even with a short reply). I want to keep this issue out in front of Leica so that they're aware of the interest. I realize that these controls may be more important to professional photographers but they could benefit a lot of people. Cheers, Sean Hi Sean (and other mates from other Forums) I decided to chime in here with my betters to confirm that one does not need to be a professional to appreciate the changes you propose. It seems a very good idea to me. Jaap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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