sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Share #1 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I just spent ten hours yesterday covering a wedding with my wife. I worked with an R-D1 and a 5D, she worked with another Canon DSLR. I'm among a small number of photographers who have been using the R-D1 as a primary professional camera for the past two years. I was thinking about the M8 as I was working, vis a vis the 5D and the Epson. So, some more thoughts: 1) Having a 32mm FOV available in the finder is going to be wonderful. The R-D1 doesn't go wide enough and accessory finders are tricky to use when one is working quickly and at larger apertures. 2) The fact that the M8's histogram comes up right away after an exposure (like the 5D but unlike the R-D1) is a huge asset for making quick exposure assessments of fast-changing subject matter and conditions. 3) ISO 2500 is wonderful to have on the M8. I went to 3200 several times with the 5D. 4) If anything, I'm even more emphatic about the importance of having fast access to ISO on the M8 (for working professionals). I was mindful of it yesterday as I working, given our discussions here. I'm primarily an existing light photographer and that look is a large part of what clients pay me for. Here's one sequence based on what actually happened yesterday: Indoors: 1600 Wedding party getting into limo: 400 Inside limo: 3200 Wedding party getting out of limo: 400 Indoors again: 1600 Wedding party getting into limo again: 400 Inside limo: 3200 Wedding party getting out of limo again: 400 Wedding party moves through indoor building: 1600 Wedding party comes down outdoor stairs: 400 Skies become cloudy: 800 And so on... My ISO controls were being worked constantly on both cameras. How fast do these transitions happen? Very fast... FWIW Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2006 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi sean_reid, Take a look here Some More M8 Thoughts. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
peterb Posted October 1, 2006 Share #2 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi Sean! I, too, am very excited about the 32mm FOV. I'd mentioned on another thread that having a lens that's a scosh wider than the 35mm I was used to, I felt, would be ideal for me. Also looking with keen interest at the what using the Noctilux may yield. With its narrow DOF, dreamlike bokeh, and more flattering (and flattening) slight increase in telephoto, it could bring new life to portraits and small group shots. Plus having decently low noise higher ISO's instantaneously would also be great. While I've got you here, I just want to say how much I enjoy your website and the articles you've written. Your observations, discoveries, insights and thoroughness of reporting have helped me a lot in both equipment selection and what to make of the digital frontier. I look forward to your continued essays and, in particular, thoughts on what will be my next camera: the M8. Regards, P Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #3 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi Peter, Thanks very much for your comments. I really like the 32 mm FOV. BTW, for anyone who may be trying to reach me by e-mail, there was a fire at my ISP and so I may not have access to e-mail for another 24-36 hours. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 1, 2006 Share #4 Posted October 1, 2006 The M8 makes me think of those small German cars mimicing old 'beetles' or 'minis' if you see what i mean. Mainly aimed at classic M users who don't change iso's and ev's frequently and for whom a small round frame counter and a brass made base plate may be preferable to a large top display and a easy access to battery and memory card. But why not after all? The new beetles and minis sell very well don't they? The M9 will be more ergonomic hopefully. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 1, 2006 Share #5 Posted October 1, 2006 I do agree; the four arrow buttons are unused in shooting mode so could easily be assigned to changing the ISO or EV quickly when shooting... - treat initial press of the shutter release the same as the final press of the SET button (as Sean has already suggested) - arrow buttons to increment/decrement ISO or EV - option to switch this functionality on or off by user preference All firmware, easy to do (I write firmware, been there, done that). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #6 Posted October 1, 2006 The M8 makes me think of those small German cars mimicing old 'beetles' or 'minis' if you see what i mean. Mainly aimed at classic M users who don't change iso's and ev's frequently and for whom a small round frame counter and a brass made base plate may be preferable to a large top display and a easy access to battery and memory card. But why not after all? The new beetles and minis sell very well don't they? The M9 will be more ergonomic hopefully. Hi LCT, There's a degree of that for sure. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted October 1, 2006 Share #7 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) hi sean.... u mention here the high iso settings... now i understnad that the camera is not fully ready (firmware or what ever )... but how is those hig iso ... in other words... my main question and considiration is wether the m8 can "replace", so to speack, the fuji provia 400 (pushed of course) or npz800 (pushed to 1600)... why this is main concidiration to me...well - cause me too... existing light - and only existing light with non-studio work... in other words the same reason u mention :-))))) again, im sure that at slow leica willbe cool, but i use so much the fast film as im sure u can imagine from what i described abotu my concidirations... please... any thought of yours will be apriciated very much... by the way - do u have the extended reviews on this topic already, or u gonna prepare them???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #8 Posted October 1, 2006 I do agree; the four arrow buttons are unused in shooting mode so could easily be assigned to changing the ISO or EV quickly when shooting... - treat initial press of the shutter release the same as the final press of the SET button (as Sean has already suggested) - arrow buttons to increment/decrement ISO or EV - option to switch this functionality on or off by user preference All firmware, easy to do (I write firmware, been there, done that). Hi Mark, I was thinking yesterday that if they do adopt the firmware changes I sent (and they are looking at them) then one actually could change ISO by feel so long as he or she knew what ISO he or she was starting at. For example, if I knew that I was at ISO 320 on the M8, I could press the right arrow button once, the up arrow button twice and touch the shutter release. That would put me at ISO 1250 without ever taking my eye from the finder. So long as I kept track of the ISO in my head, I could make fast switches while never taking my eye off the ball (so to speak). *That* in fact, would be even faster than the R-D1 ISO system (which is saying something for sure). Ditto for EV. Assuming I'm at 0 EV correction, I could press the left arrow button once, the up arrow button twice and touch the shutter release. That would put me at +2/3 EV, again without having taken my eye from the finder. Again, the only caveat with either of these approaches is that to do either of them by feel, one must remember what setting he or she is starting from. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 1, 2006 Share #9 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi Mark, I was thinking yesterday that if they do adopt the firmware changes I sent (and they are looking at them) then one actually could change ISO by feel so long as he or she knew what ISO he or she was starting at. For example, if I knew that I was at ISO 320 on the M8, I could press the right arrow button once, the up arrow button twice and touch the shutter release. That would put me at ISO 1250 without ever taking my eye from the finder. So long as I kept track of the ISO in my head, I could make fast switches while never taking my eye off the ball (so to speak). *That* in fact, would be even faster than the R-D1 ISO system (which is saying something for sure). Ditto for EV. Assuming I'm at 0 EV correction, I could press the left arrow button once, the up arrow button twice and touch the shutter release. That would put me at +2/3 EV, again without having taken my eye from the finder. Again, the only caveat with either of these approaches is that to do either of them by feel, one must remember what setting he or she is starting from. Cheers, Sean Good suggestions. I hope Leica decides to implement them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 1, 2006 Share #10 Posted October 1, 2006 Sounds ideal to me... I think they can save face by making these features optional but using the left/right arrows to select the function and up/down to change the value is a neat solution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 1, 2006 Share #11 Posted October 1, 2006 Coming from the DMR with those same arrow buttons. Your right thumb is just sitting there and can make adjustments if they were active very simply and without removing your eye. As Sean , myself and ohers have expressed it may not be that important for some folks but is it not wise to have it there for the folks that want that speed. It changes really nothing on the camera in terms of its looks and the classic M styling. From my prespective this is the only area i see on paper as being a mistake. And a mistake on the EV in particular. Even as a pro when in the field I use the A mode quite a bit and one reason is the R9 is very accurate but digital is based on the Histogram and there will be times when you need to make adjustments on the fly to get that exposure further over to the right or back off from clipping. The ISO is no different as Sean describes his wedding shoot yesterday that his ISO was flipping back and forth to achieve his desired apetures and shutter speeds. I am not a software engineer but one would think the writing of the code on this is pretty simple. Maybe I am wrong on that assesment but if it was a week delay than it would be worth it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #12 Posted October 1, 2006 Coming from the DMR with those same arrow buttons. Your right thumb is just sitting there and can make adjustments if they were active very simply and without removing your eye. As Sean , myself and ohers have expressed it may not be that important for some folks but is it not wise to have it there for the folks that want that speed. It changes really nothing on the camera in terms of its looks and the classic M styling. From my prespective this is the only area i see on paper as being a mistake. And a mistake on the EV in particular. Even as a pro when in the field I use the A mode quite a bit and one reason is the R9 is very accurate but digital is based on the Histogram and there will be times when you need to make adjustments on the fly to get that exposure further over to the right or back off from clipping. The ISO is no different as Sean describes his wedding shoot yesterday that his ISO was flipping back and forth to achieve his desired apetures and shutter speeds. I am not a software engineer but one would think the writing of the code on this is pretty simple. Maybe I am wrong on that assesment but if it was a week delay than it would be worth it Hi Guy, According to conversations I've had with Leica recently, a firmware change like that is not quite as simple to make as it might seem but it *is* possible. The more I think about it, the more I like the degree to which that setting system could work on feel alone. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted October 1, 2006 Share #13 Posted October 1, 2006 so for example, in the shooting sean described, you could set the camera to manual f8/250, for instance, and adjust the iso with the up/down arrow until the match needle was right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 1, 2006 Share #14 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi Guy, According to conversations I've had with Leica recently, a firmware change like that is not quite as simple to make as it might seem but it *is* possible. The more I think about it, the more I like the degree to which that setting system could work on feel alone. Cheers, Sean I know and i am a layman on the engineeering world but one can hope Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 1, 2006 Share #15 Posted October 1, 2006 Really Sean you really could do it by feel alone , if you are working with EV and hit the up button it could be a 1/3 stop every time 3 hits and it is a stop. The same with the ISO just say it was the right and left arrow it could be in full stops on each push and shoot. 160,320,640,1250,2500 really that is a 5 stop swing. Hit it twice to the right and your at 640 one more 1250 than back 3 to 160. I think it would take a day to adjust to that and it would be embedded in your brain. You could still hit a set or a half shutter release to confirm that would not bother me either. Something simple is all it would take Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #16 Posted October 1, 2006 hi sean.... u mention here the high iso settings... now i understnad that the camera is not fully ready (firmware or what ever )... but how is those hig iso ... in other words... my main question and considiration is wether the m8 can "replace", so to speack, the fuji provia 400 (pushed of course) or npz800 (pushed to 1600)... why this is main concidiration to me...well - cause me too... existing light - and only existing light with non-studio work... in other words the same reason u mention :-))))) again, im sure that at slow leica willbe cool, but i use so much the fast film as im sure u can imagine from what i described abotu my concidirations... please... any thought of yours will be apriciated very much... by the way - do u have the extended reviews on this topic already, or u gonna prepare them???? Hi Vic, In my second article about the M8, I will be looking at file quality and ISO performance in depth, comparing the M8 with the 5D and R-D1. But I must wait for a production M8 from Leica (possibly this coming week) to use for samples, discussion, etc. Till then, I can't discuss file quality. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #17 Posted October 1, 2006 so for example, in the shooting sean described, you could set the camera to manual f8/250, for instance, and adjust the iso with the up/down arrow until the match needle was right? That's true to an extent, yes, although it's important to keep in mind that the ISO moves only in whole stops whereas the aperture ring and shutter dial move in 1/2 stops. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMF Posted October 1, 2006 Share #18 Posted October 1, 2006 Code changes, as simple and quick as they might be, can cause further delays on the test side. Everything that changes in the code base will then require the entire program to be fully tested throughly from end to end. If major bugs are found, they need to be fixed (via code) and the testing process begins again. It's the reason why you can never actually predict when a software product comes to market. WIth the M8 coming to market in November I would think that testing is pretty close to being complete and that the hardware is already being built now. The advantage to firmware is that it can be updated. The disadvantge to firmware is that a product can come to market with it's software not fully baked. The most important thing is to get the hardware right (as you can't change that) and from what it sounds Leica has done a wonderful job with that task. -RMF Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #19 Posted October 1, 2006 Really Sean you really could do it by feel alone , if you are working with EV and hit the up button it could be a 1/3 stop every time 3 hits and it is a stop. The same with the ISO just say it was the right and left arrow it could be in full stops on each push and shoot. 160,320,640,1250,2500 really that is a 5 stop swing. Hit it twice to the right and your at 640 one more 1250 than back 3 to 160. I think it would take a day to adjust to that and it would be embedded in your brain. You could still hit a set or a half shutter release to confirm that would not bother me either. Something simple is all it would take For a photographer like myself, this kind of improvement would be exciting because it *significantly* improves the usability of the camera for the fast-paced existing light work I do regularly (not just weddings but various assignments). Your system is a little different from mine but, either way, moving to a system that can work by feel alone would be a huge improvement. As you say, one would internalize the system so that it became intuitive. If there are any other photographers for whom this issue of improved EV/ISO control design is important, please chime in (even with a short reply). I want to keep this issue out in front of Leica so that they're aware of the interest. I realize that these controls may be more important to professional photographers but they could benefit a lot of people. One more thought, though. Using the left/right buttons to specify the function and the up/down arrows to adjust the value would make accidental changes less likely. The correct buttons would need to be pressed in the correct order for a value to change. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #20 Posted October 1, 2006 Code changes, as simple and quick as they might be, can cause further delays on the test side. Everything that changes in the code base will then require the entire program to be fully tested throughly from end to end. If major bugs are found, they need to be fixed (via code) and the testing process begins again. It's the reason why you can never actually predict when a software prodcut comes to market. WIth the M8 coming to market in November I would think that testing is pretty close to being complete and that the hardware is already being built now. You must have missed the earlier discussion of this topic. No one (to my knowledge) is talking about this being implemented on the first round of cameras. Rather, we're talking about a downloadable firmware upgrade that could be available in the future. It's far too late for this firmware change to get into current productoion cameras but there's no reason it can't come in down the line and be available to (then) existing owners. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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