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M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990

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I still shoot (quite happily) film in my M's. I started out in photography about 4-5 years ago with the original Canon digital Rebel. About 1-2 years later, I moved over to a film Canon camera, and then to an M6 + 50 cron (which cost me a grand total of $1500). Over the intervening years, I've picked up a ZM 35, and old Nikkor 50, a CV 15 (just this week), and an M7. With the exception of the M7, which was used, I haven't spent anything more than $800 on an item. While the equipment is a bit more expensive than the Canon counterparts (about twice as much on average), I'm reasonably ok with the prices - so far.

 

Some day I would like to pick up a digital M, once its full frame and has a sensor that I'd be happy with. However, at the rate things are going, I don't think I'll be able to afford it. Or want to afford it. I can only justify up to about $2-3k on a lens/camera. I'm not a big lens hound, so something like the 50 asph, while ridiculously expensive, I'm somewhat ok with, because I know I'm happy with a 50, a 35, and the 15. Throw in a tele on my Canon, and there's not much else in the way of lenses that I want. Same with a camera body. But the prices of the new lenses/camera are just nuts. As in I could buy my whole system (2 cameras, and 3 lenses) for the price of one lens. You guys must have a *lot* more disposable income than I do. A lot. And I am a doctor. haha. But not the kind that makes a lot of money (non-medical researcher).

 

As to the whole professional/hobbyist distinction, most cameras and lenses are sold to hobbyists I would imagine. And most good photography is also probably made by hobbyists. Just because it doesn't sell for big bucks or you've never seen it doesn't make bad. I've always found that some great work (art, music, whatever) is made by people who aren't constrained by business concerns.

 

The fact of the matter is, that for in the neighborhood of $12k, you get an M8 and a 24/1.4. And in the big picture, a Canon 5D + there 24/1.4 could cost as little as ~$3k. You could get a small car with the difference in price... Or take a fabulous vacation, and probably get better pictures with your *real* 24mm lens. And this is coming from someone who *is* irrational and loves shooting on a manual focus, film camera instead of his fancy autofocus SLR+zoom. And I haven't even picked up the DSLR in... 2 years?

 

Note - I know a lot of the prices of Leica equipment is due to manufacture in Germany AND the poor dollar. I was into audio recording and had bought a very nice set of Schoeps mics (made in Germany) and there have been 3 or 4 price increases in the last 5 years that made them go from expensive but worth it to ridiculous and not worth it, all based on the price of the dollar. I mean, you could still buy the basic pair of mics, but to outfit the system the way one might want to would cost a million bucks. I'm willing to pay for the handmade, high QC, old fashion and non-disposable workmanship. The weak ass dollar makes it really hard to swallow though...

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Originally by Diogenis

 

" Re: M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

Yes - there is no internal UV/IR filter, other than the minimal one already implemented on the M8 classic.

Jaap, this is a quote of Leica's own press release, spec sheet, talking about the sensor:

 

Image sensor: Low-noise CCD sensor specially optimized for the requirements of the M

lens system. Pixels: 10.3 million. Dimensions: 18 mm x 27 mm. Extension

factor: 1.33 x. Aspect ratio 3:2. Coverglass thickness 0.5 mm, full

suppression of infrared light by additional UV/IR filter. Moiré filter: no, but

full exploitation of the lens capabilities by Moiré fringe detection and

elimination by digital signal processing.

 

this is the link: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ch/m82_eng.pdf

 

It really is controversial, but it seems they have solved the IR filter problem.

Sein that had a prototype tested testifies he doesn't need those extra IR filters anymore.

I believe that an updated M8 will never be able to get that filter"

 

 

 

No, I don't think so. Additional means the filters that go on the front of the lens, just as now.

 

(I'd be delighted to be proved wrong of course)

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yes i did deal with it thanks

 

3k for a noctilux and 3k for an M8 (GBP)

 

but you seem to be completely misreading what's going here:

 

 

 

I got into the M system with one set of prices. But now its a very different deal althogether. My camera cost me 3k, then 3 years later when its replacement arrives I'm going to have to shelve out more like 6k. So, think about it, I feel tricked. If you can't understand that then you need your head tested. Since when has the flagship Nikon or Canon pro DSL doubled in price every 3 years ?

 

If the price of the M8 doubled NEW to NEW - we'd be looking at a $10,000 (USD) M8.2 right now. We're not. If you want to see what the going price for a used Nikon D2X runs right now, it is well below 50% of a new D3. To use Nikon as an example - their flagship has remained consistently priced at $4995 since introduction 8 years ago. Leica has seen price increases based on various economic factors such as dollar vs. euro and manufacturing costs. Anyone getting into higher end digital imaging should expect to fork out decent money to upgrade or keep up with cycle of planned obsolescence that the manufacturer's stick to as they try and leapfrog over one another in some silly arms race. Theoretically, the Nikon D2X can still take outstanding images, as can the D2H - but the D3 takes things to a different level. I'm wondering if the M8.2 is going to take things to such a level in the Leica world.

 

I'm not defending the price increases, and I certainly think the pricing places them beyond the realm of many, many people. I got lucky and picked up a used Noctilux for $1800 (USD) a few years ago. I never expected to see the insanity that's out there now, but there's not much i can do. If i didn't have that lens already, there's certainly no way I'd be looking at it now.

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Originally by Diogenis

 

" Re: M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

Yes - there is no internal UV/IR filter, other than the minimal one already implemented on the M8 classic.

Jaap, this is a quote of Leica's own press release, spec sheet, talking about the sensor:

 

Image sensor: Low-noise CCD sensor specially optimized for the requirements of the M

lens system. Pixels: 10.3 million. Dimensions: 18 mm x 27 mm. Extension

factor: 1.33 x. Aspect ratio 3:2. Coverglass thickness 0.5 mm, full

suppression of infrared light by additional UV/IR filter. Moiré filter: no, but

full exploitation of the lens capabilities by Moiré fringe detection and

elimination by digital signal processing.

 

this is the link: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ch/m82_eng.pdf

 

It really is controversial, but it seems they have solved the IR filter problem.

Sein that had a prototype tested testifies he doesn't need those extra IR filters anymore.

I believe that an updated M8 will never be able to get that filter"

 

 

 

No, I don't think so. Additional means the filters that go on the front of the lens, just as now.

 

(I'd be delighted to be proved wrong of course)

 

You are 100% right There are no changes to the sensor or the filtering.

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It is a fact that I once paid £13,000 for a Harley- Davidson Road King Classic. I could have bought a Japanese Honda Fireblade (or two even). I wasn't a professional rider.

 

My M8 and lenses cost a lot less than that and are still giving me pleasure and I use them every day. The Harley was used for a Sunday jaunt.

 

The new camera and lenses do cost a lot of money but they are not too bad compared with other popular hobbies. If you are a pro the cost is even easier to justify.

 

Interesting points there Steve:

 

Harley (was me too) - Sunday jaunts on fine weather days, when you have time. Useable 6 months of the year, but pay tax, insurance, depreciation all the time and fuel, say £40 a day) at today's high prices whenever you use it. Cost in a year can easily get to £5,000 for 6 months availability. Leica is 'cheap' in comparison. Similarly, for high priced fun cars.

 

As a Pro, I have to justify my Leica gear, unlike most amateurs who buy because they want it. I buy because I need it. As a Pro, the cost is not as important because camera gear can earn a lot of money in 10 years. What causes so much hesitation in Pro's (IMO) is the cost of having multiple systems

 

The new lenses have made the M8 much more flexible as Canon/Nikon wide angles were 2 stops faster. Makes it possible to shoot jobs and give a special look that will help sell images and improve portfolios. Lenses cost little over a period, but just tie money up as the residual values are so high. A £3k, f1.4 lens now will fetch £2+k in 10 years time, so £100 per year plus the cost of capital, less any tax reef and VAT recovery. Accept that money can otherwise be spent on bread and jam.

 

M8.2 Quiet mode is important and the only real reason for M8.2, but it's not half as important as being able to interchange bodies and lenses without the worry of back-focus. Need focus-calibration, or a mechanical fix for that. Not heard anything from Leica yet on what they've done for focus or reliability, although it's not the worry it was 2 years ago. Absolute waste of time having the best lenses in the world if they don't focus, or the camera is in Solms twice a year.

 

Rolo

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Steve,

 

As with any consumer goods it will cost what the market can stand; too expensive and it won't sell and will have to be discounted, too cheap and sales will outstrip supply and the price will rise.

 

Pete.

Yes, the market will always win in the end.

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.... If you are a pro the cost is even easier to justify.

 

Ridiculous. If you are a pro the price is even HARDER to justify. There's a lot more overhead to being a pro photographer than lenses and bodies. Have you priced a decent portfolio book? Do you know the cost of promotion? Computers, inkjet printers, studio rent, and so on and so on? Not to mention that the photography world is even more oversaturated than ever and fees lower than ever (thanks penny stock).

 

I think Leica blew it. The Leica counter at my dealer is already a ghost town, and this isn't going to help. If I know my dealer he's already wringing his hands.

 

I know that if I was your average wealthy intro-amateur going in to buy a digital camera for the first time I would most likely walk out with a D700 or even the new D90 for that matter. A lot of wealthy people have no problem dropping $3K for a handbag or $50-100K for a car, but they just don't GET photography and don't see why it should cost $9K for a camera and lens (esp one that doesn't autofocus and the preview looks like crap). And few pros I know can justify the cost of new Leica gear.

 

Leica really needed to offer new goods between $200 and $2000, even if they have to go the Zeiss route and start Japanese manufacturing. Where's a new flash? An affordable superwide? A wholly unique p&s?

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Here is my analysis (take it for what it's worth); the current market price for a used M8 is $3400-3900 (on ebay). Had the 8.2 come in at the same list price as the M8 the used prices would have dropped $600-800 (my best guess). Since the M8.2 comes in at a higher price the used M8 prices should remain stable. So if I sell my M8 I've gained $600-800 thanks to the increased M8.2 price. If I choose to get the M8.2 I get the quiet shutter, the hardened glass, the delayed cocking, improved framelines, SDHC, better leatherette, black logo, black hot shoe and black paint for a net of about $1200 (US).

 

I am looking at this from a purely pragmatic point of view, fluff totally aside.

 

There are features on the M8.2 I would like, the shutter, SDHC and frame line improvements for the most part, the rest are nice but not deal makers for me. The thing of it is this: I have an improved website to launch soon, that is thousands. When Apple finally gets the next rev. of the Macbook Pro out the door, I can replace my lemon-esque current one. All of that is a lot of money, but much needed, good ROI for sure.

 

So now I can sell my slightly brassed M8 with less than 8,000 clicks for about $3,000-$3,800. If I do that, I have to come up with another 3 grand to get those minor improvements that really don't do a whole lot for image quality.

 

Image quality is what *actually* shows up in the frame after you put the effort into it, not just pixel measurements. If the frame lines are that much improved in the M8.2, then that could be a counter to this point.

 

It seems to me that if Leica is going to be true to the current M8 being a long term investment, then they should make all the non-cosmetic differences part of the upgrade plan.

 

I think it would be nice to have the M8.2, but I am not sure about the value in it.

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You are 100% right There are no changes to the sensor or the filtering.

 

Correct. If there were, you would see this as the primary press release point of the M8.2 release. You would also see used M8 prices drop well below 3K and possibly 2K in light of a flooded market.

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I know. In general the meaning of the word `additional` has been taken to mean that one must add a filter to get full IR surpression.

It would be sensational if you were right and that alone would justify the extra cost of the M8/2. But until now the sensation has not broken loose....

I don't see where Sean comes into this. As it is, at the end of his M8-2 preview,where there is nothing about this supposed filter, he wishes for an internal IR filter.....

 

Jaap,

 

As someone who frequently uses the unique ability of the M8 to take IR photos with a B+W 092 or 093 filter, I would greatly miss this ability if the M8 was to ape other digitals and put a full IR filter over the sensor. However, I am sure I am in a minority here.

 

Wilson

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However, I am sure I am in a minority here.

 

I hope so. I've never shared the (largely amateur) fascination with IR photography and get pissed off when I see reflections or flare from the filters potentially ruining shots (those who claim that with the filters in place, the IR problem is a non-issue obviously never shoot at night, on stages or into the sun, etc..).

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The problem for Leica price wise is that they are going in the opposite direction to everyone else. At the moment it can be 'justified' but if FF and MF cameras continue to drop in price they are going to look increasingly out of step.

 

Maybe there are enough super rich out there to keep Leica going, I dont know. However if they are looking at people like me, not rich but financially comfortable, to be their future customers, they maybe in for a shock.

 

As others have said the M8 produces nice files comparatively speaking, but not so much today when compared with output from other cameras.

 

I dont see the M8.2 reviving sales to any great extent (maybe a bit of a bubble) at its intro price and it looks as if a M9 with better sensor is going to be truly astronomical in price.

 

I wonder how many of those who are now saying 'if you dont like it dont buy it' will be howling when Leica prices the M9 at £6000.

 

Is the framed Leica M brand going to be exclusively for multi-millionaires? If that it their strategy I say shame on you Leica.

 

Jeff

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I hope so. I've never shared the (largely amateur) fascination with IR photography and get pissed off when I see reflections or flare from the filters potentially ruining shots (those who claim that with the filters in place, the IR problem is a non-issue obviously never shoot at night, on stages or into the sun, etc..).

 

I shoot real infrared, Kodak HIE in 35mm and 120 and Efke IR 820 in 120 in my 500 C/M. I don't really care for it in digital as fine art buyers like to pay hundreds for hand printed film images, not hokey digital ones.

 

The IR filter fiasco in the M8 has got to be one of the biggest blunders in photo equipment history.

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Just to clarify a point in my previous post, I think I read that the M8.2 comes in chrome, black chrome, and black paint.

 

The price point, if I can mention Nikon. Here goes we don't yet have the D90 in Canada. It will arrive this week at some point (Friday). A couple of weeks in advance of this I was given the opportunity to try one on for size.

 

Body only will go for around 1050$CND (+12% TAXES). No doubt by Christmas it will be somewhat less.

 

There is a D90 set on my flickr site (street type shots around Vancouver).

 

I was impressed with what Nikon added over the previous model:

 

12.3 MP - CMOS sensor with HD movie mode, ala live view.

1.5 crop factor 96% frame coverage

Sensor dust control, etc.

High ISO = to or better than the D300.

100 ISO - Auto ISO with features.

Shutter noise is quiet = to the current M8 (to my ear).

Full manual focus (Zeiss optics available for Nikon).

IQ is impressive (Active D lighting included)

Body sizes... The M8. M8 without Battery = 545g D90 = 620g. M8 = 138.6 x 80.2 x 36.9mm - D90 = 132 x 103 x 77mm

Fast start-up and wake-up.

3" LCD - exceptionally sharp and clear (with a cover)

Not weather sealed = M8

Longer battery life, the ability to add battery pack and use AA

Autofocus (if you want to use it), including electronic 'rangefinder',etc.

IR is controlled which can be considered both a plus and minus....

 

The point being if we start down the slippery slope of price versus feature comparisons (there are others such as Canon, Olympus, Pentax, etc) it is no contest for Leica and the M8.2. When I bought the M8 there were much less expensive altenatives with more featured DSLR but no other current DRF bodies - I made a choice.

 

Best to all. Terry.

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The point being if we start down the slippery slope of price versus feature comparisons (there are others such as Canon, Olympus, Pentax, etc) it is no contest for Leica and the M8.2

 

And that's probably been the case for Leica since Nikon launched the Nikon F.

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Olympus asks more than 6000 euros for some professional tele lenses for 4/3 mount. The same goes for Canon, and others. So what?

 

Do you complain for the price of the Canon 300mm f/2,8 (and they have competition!)? How much the Canon 800mm costs? In a rangefinder camera you cannot use superteles, but you have a 21/1.4 lens, or a 50/0.95 lens.

 

Special purpose lenses have special prices.

 

Do you need 21/1.4? Then, your only choice is Leica M. Don't? Then, forget those lenses. You have cheaper and smaller lenses for the M system too.

 

I don't need a Canon 300mm f/2,8, but the price seems fine to me, if you consider it is a special purpose lens, top quality, produced in small numbers, expensive to manufacture, distribute and support.

 

I would like to have a 21/1.4 for 2.000 euros with Leica quality, but it is impossible. Even if I cannot afford it, I prefer this lens to exist. It makes stronger the M system.

 

Many people would be happy with a Canon 300 f/2,8 for 2000 euros, but...

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New compact battery charger sounds great, and 24 mm Elmar should do well. New M8.2 black finish appears to be some sort of powder coating, maybe the same as used on the lens barrels.

 

Just curious, but why are the prices quoted in Pounds and not Euros, and could it be that we haven't actually seen the official USA prices yet? Also, the UK prices shown include VAT which we don't pay in the US of A.

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New compact battery charger sounds great, and 24 mm Elmar should do well. New M8.2 black finish appears to be some sort of powder coating, maybe the same as used on the lens barrels.

 

Just curious, but why are the prices quoted in Pounds and not Euros, and could it be that we haven't actually seen the official USA prices yet? Also, the UK prices shown include VAT which we don't pay in the US of A.

 

Tony Rose of PopFlash.Photo - in the US has the M8.2 listed and with a price (6295) and is taking deposites.

 

Best Regards Terry.

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