M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990

[jackal]

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£3990 is just totally absurd

 

 

The M8 is now a seriously outdated camera. Sure, no one expects Leica to keep up with the Nikon/Canons of this world but they surely have to pay homage to that market and freeze the price whilst they are playing catchup with the sensor (or keep price rises on the body minimal.... to think My M8 cost me £2500 !). At the very least, offer the old M8 at a greatly reduced price. I can just about get the logic in the glass pricing because I do believe Leica glass is special and unique, especially at 1.4. But there is NOTHING special about the M8 that warrants an extraordinary high price, quite the oposite, its an anachronism that M shooters are temporarily forced to hold onto and continue using.

 

£3990 buys you a 1ds mkiii plus a fair bit of change, or a D3 plus a LOT of change. And once all the photokina canon/nikon news is in I bet the comparisons will become even more embarrasing for leica. £3990 for a FF 16MP+, high noise M8 would be 'satisfactory' but for this 8.2, imo I feel a bit insulted.

 

I've invested quite seriously in Leica M for professional work. The rumoured Nikon RF could save the day if it is a genuine item, but other than that, I feel pretty angry about Leica's new direction (clearly not catering for pros and real photographers) and I will now seriously investigate a move to an H3d + japanese DSLR setup. At least the hasselblad lenses are affordable ! Sticking with the M system sooner or later I'm going to get left high and dry with old technology and silly 'Brad Pitt' prices.

[tom0511]

I am also disappointed from Leicas announcements.

The M8.2 is the only one which I find a little bit interesting. Specially the quieter shutter and teh quiet mode, as well as auto iso.

 

The new Noctilux....I have enough to do to focus my 50/1.4asph correct, so I dont see how one focuses at f 0.95 correct and reliable (not just one out of 5 shots).

Maybe some other people have different skills but personally I only get consistent and reliable focus atsuch shallow DOF with AF.

And then the price-sorry, with all love and respect for Leica I find this too much.

 

Now 24 and 28 f1.4. Maybe interesting, but same here, I am really suspicious, who will pay so much money. I have a Nikon 28/1.4 and admit, that I barely use it.

28/2.0asph is all I need.

And then a 24/3.8 as the "cheapo" lens for 1700 €???

Same price as a Nikon 14-24/2.8 ?

 

Overall I have to say that I found the Summarit move a much much better move than the one Leica is going now.

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[thrid]

Sure £4,000 sounds a lot for a camera but it seems to me that the price for an M8.2 is in the ballpark of an M8 (original price) + full upgrade, which means that Leica is securing M8 owners' investments.

 

If the price point for for the M8.2 had been similar to the M8 then there would have been a wailing and gnashing of teeth by M8 owners that their investment had been devalued.

 

Pete.

 

Since when are cameras an investment, unless it's an antique or rarity?

Especially digital cameras, which basically are computers with a lens mount?

[thrid]

£3990 is just totally absurd

 

£3990 buys you a 1ds mkiii plus a fair bit of change, or a D3 plus a LOT of change. And once all the photokina canon/nikon news is in I bet the comparisons will become even more embarrasing for leica. £3990 for a FF 16MP+, high noise M8 would be 'satisfactory' but for this 8.2, imo I feel a bit insulted.

 

I've invested quite seriously in Leica M for professional work. The rumoured Nikon RF could save the day if it is a genuine item, but other than that, I feel pretty angry about Leica's new direction (clearly not catering for pros and real photographers) and I will now seriously investigate a move to an H3d + japanese DSLR setup. At least the hasselblad lenses are affordable ! Sticking with the M system sooner or later I'm going to get left high and dry with old technology and silly 'Brad Pitt' prices.

 

I'm in a similar boat. I have several M and R bodies and the lenses to go with them. Several of these items were purchased new.

 

But £3990 is too much. I just bought a D700 last week for £1699. I needed a digital and as much as I wanted an M8, it was just too expensive. It's not even that the performance isn't up to par with the latest generation of cameras. I would put up with the noise. It's just too expensive, especially if you also need a backup body.

 

The D700 doesn't handle as nice as an M, nor is it as small, but it can practically see in the dark. 6400 asa on this camera looks a lot like good 400asa color film... I stuck some Zeiss glass on it and I have to say I'm impressed.

 

I don't know what Kaufmann is up to. He's obviously been very wealthy for a very long time and it seems to me that he's out of touch with the lives of ordinary people. I'm not necessarily asking for a bargain basement M body. Leica's have never been cheap. But this is unrealistic.

[stunsworth]

At least the hasselblad lenses are affordable !

 

Ffordes, 35mm f3.5 = £2099, 50. Given that that's roughly equivalent to a 24mm Elmarit - though half a stop slower - I'd say the prices are comparable.

 

Are there many f2 or f1.4 lenses?

 

The M8 may be seen as 'old hat', but it also happens to produce beautiful images.

[chris_tribble]

I've invested quite seriously in Leica M for professional work. The rumoured Nikon RF could save the day if it is a genuine item, but other than that, I feel pretty angry about Leica's new direction (clearly not catering for pros and real photographers) and I will now seriously investigate a move to an H3d + japanese DSLR setup. At least the hasselblad lenses are affordable ! Sticking with the M system sooner or later I'm going to get left high and dry with old technology and silly 'Brad Pitt' prices.

 

Isn't this old ground? The M series has not been a sensible single choice of system for a working pro for a long time. What it offers is what it offers. Portability, great lenses, a slower, more measured way of working. If you want it and can afford it, you get it. You also get the glass you need for your DSLR system of choice AND/OR your medium format of choice - depending on how you make your living - and you use it for as long as it does the job for you. A working pro can well do without an M system camera. But for those of us who like working this way the M8 offers some pretty useful solutions - and the M8.2 has made it better. I wish the M8 had been designed this way from the start - now that's an annoyance. But I'm not going to knock Leica for improving a product!

[Ecaton]

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No sense of reality in Solms. As others, I somewhat understand very high prices for low volume manufactured fast and exceptional leica lenses.

But even a D-Lux 4 is (over-)priced at USD 849.- (ridicoulous), whilst its identical cousin, the Pana LX3 can already be had for USd 400 with special rebates.

[jackal]

Ffordes, 35mm f3.5 = £2099, 50. Given that that's roughly equivalent to a 24mm Elmarit - though half a stop slower - I'd say the prices are comparable.

 

Are there many f2 or f1.4 lenses?

 

The M8 may be seen as 'old hat', but it also happens to produce beautiful images.

 

 

i'd say your using some strange price/speed equation to justify the situation. You cannot equate price purely on lens speed.

 

 

what about adding in to your equation the fact that the MF lens SHOULD be a lot dearer because you can make WAY more money out of them and produce huge prints that the little leicas wouldn't have a hope of creating. What about the hasselblad 28 lens which has optical correction and is one of the most stunning lenses money can buy.

 

And yes, the M8 does produce great images but it did so at 2500-3000 GBP, exactly the same images in fact... and you have to keep the market and technology in perspective. Most of its to do with the glass in any case.

 

If the M8 was increased next year to say $19,995 I suppose there would always be someone out there saying... "Oh yes, but it does create beautiful images". Wake up and smell the coffee for pete's sake.. your being royally fleeced, end of story.

[jackal]

Isn't this old ground? The M series has not been a sensible single choice of system for a working pro for a long time. What it offers is what it offers. Portability, great lenses, a slower, more measured way of working. If you want it and can afford it, you get it. You also get the glass you need for your DSLR system of choice AND/OR your medium format of choice - depending on how you make your living - and you use it for as long as it does the job for you. A working pro can well do without an M system camera. But for those of us who like working this way the M8 offers some pretty useful solutions - and the M8.2 has made it better. I wish the M8 had been designed this way from the start - now that's an annoyance. But I'm not going to knock Leica for improving a product!

 

 

 

not true from where i'm standing

what is offers has CHANGED markedly

 

 

2 years ago:

 

the sensor technology was more than acceptable

the price also was just about palatable

 

 

 

but now in the space of 2 years:

 

the sensor and therefore images have stayed the same whilst everything else in the industry has moved on leaps and bounds (i think a few 40MP+ sensors will turn up at photokina and create a few big surprises!)

 

the price has GONE UP by a whopping £1300 !!!! to now comfortably exceed the price of the very flagship cameras that make it look extremely dated and out of touch ! Talk about rubbing salt into the wound.

[leica007]

I suppose there would always be someone out there saying... "Oh yes, but it does create beautiful images". Wake up and smell the coffee for pete's sake.. your being royally fleeced, end of story.

 

 

Well said. There are people out there who simply cannot rationally evaluate Leica's scheme of things. We, who have not inherited a huge property but earn through hard work and have other obligations to meet, cannot hand those cash over to Leica, just because the gadget looks cool/makes you look cool or takes good photos (only?) on a bright sunny day.

[jaapv]

i'd say your using some strange price/speed equation to justify the situation. You cannot equate price purely on lens speed.

 

 

what about adding in to your equation the fact that the MF lens SHOULD be a lot dearer because you can make WAY more money out of them and produce huge prints that the little leicas wouldn't have a hope of creating. What about the hasselblad 28 lens which has optical correction and is one of the most stunning lenses money can buy.

 

And yes, the M8 does produce great images but it did so at 2500-3000 GBP, exactly the same images in fact... and you have to keep the market and technology in perspective. Most of its to do with the glass in any case.

 

If the M8 was increased next year to say $19,995 I suppose there would always be someone out there saying... "Oh yes, but it does create beautiful images". Wake up and smell the coffee for pete's sake.. your being royally fleeced, end of story.

 

I don't quite see the problem. If you think the price is not justified, don't buy it. No need to imply that those who come to a different conclusion are acting foolishly.

[stunsworth]

i'd say your using some strange price/speed equation to justify the situation. You cannot equate price purely on lens speed.

 

I was only responding to your original claim that Hassleblad lenses affordable. By picking a lens with roughly comparable specs to a 24mm Elmarit (or even the new 24mm f3.8 for that matter) I was trying to show that this wasn't necessarily the case.

 

If you or I can't afford a new body or lens, then that's a shame. I'd like the lenses to be cheaper, but they're not, and no amount of hand wringing is going to make them so. We have what we have, and have to accept that, no matter how much we'd like things to be different. If Leica have misjudged their market they'll go bust.

[wattsy]

If the M8 was increased next year to say $19,995 I suppose there would always be someone out there saying... "Oh yes, but it does create beautiful images". Wake up and smell the coffee for pete's sake.. your being royally fleeced, end of story.

 

I'm with Jackal on this. If Leica think that £4K is what they need to charge for the M8.2 than we will be looking at a much higher price for an M with real technological improvements. This means that the road map for those us heavily invested in the M system is to pony up increasingly absurd amounts of money to keep up with the technology. I'm happy with the lenses that I own and have no compelling need to buy any more but I will want and need to upgrade my M bodies at some point within the next few years if I am to stay competitive. If I'm looking at, say £6K+, for an M body (that I will want two of) with more megapixels, hopefully full-frame and/or sans IR filters then I have to consider just how important the rangefinder way of working is to me.

[stevelap]

Perhaps another way to look at the M8.2 pricing is from a business and marketing standpoint.

 

Leica have given existing users some of the features that have been asked for but the one thing that they can't offer at the moment, if you accept that the technology isn't available yet, is the feature that most would really like to see, namely a bang up to date full-frame sensor plus electronics.

 

So they have a problem in that (and I'm not bashing the camera here, I own one and love using it) they can no longer sell the M8 to professional and enthusiast users who increasingly see it as out of date technologically.

 

How then might they continue to sell the M8 until the next generation M9 comes along? Perhaps by targeting a different market.

Give it a smart new look, hike up the price and make the M8.2 even more exclusive, more of a boutique camera if you like, and hope to sell to celebrities and the super rich who might value exclusivity above everything else. Of course to do that you would also need to add some kind of auto function, so that those buyers could simply point and shoot....

 

A stop gap measure then, in order to keep sales ticking along. Offering some of the new features as upgrades might placate the existing user base in the short term, and as a bonus help shore up the residual values of the original M8.

[pgk]

Jaap et al

 

We could have a whole thread on price justification and/or affordability!

 

Its an individual consideration/decision and what applies to one person won't to another.

 

In a world with increasing costs evident everywhere purchasing decisions are going to become harder, but consider this. If Leica miraculously cut the cost of M equipment by say half would it stop all the griping - I personally doubt it, and like any other business I suspect Leica would love to reduce prices and increase profitability!

 

I actually applaud Leica for bucking the trend of continual 'improvements' which are often (dare I say it) irrelevant in practice. I still have buttons on my 1DS, which I have used professionally since it was released, which I don't use and don't actually know what they do! Some of the incremental improvements on the M8-2 (exposure compensation, SDHC, adjusted frames) do seem to indicate a company listening to customers and prepared to address issues. Depending on what transpires R-wise I certainly may consider an M8-2 (although the 21/1.4 might block this too!).

[leica007]

I don't quite see the problem. If you think the price is not justified, don't buy it. No need to imply that those who come to a different conclusion are acting foolishly.

 

What happens to our investment in the Leica system? It's not like buying a bar of chocolate, where you can always go for another brand or flavour without incurring much/any loss. Changing to a different camera system is not that easy, though that might become a possibility.

 

We expected either a very good upgrade or a modest increase in price, not a stratospheric rise. In fact, what justifies the price rise, when most other companies are holding on the price [compare Canon 1ds2 and 1ds3] and MF cameras have seen price cut (Hasselblad and Phaseone) ?

 

It's quite legitimate to say that at this price point M8.2 might not hold a candle to other cameras in the Photokina-2008 scenario.

[bertraaphorst]

"That is an awful lot of cash.........." considering that we are talking about a 2 year old sensor in a market environment which has seen and will continue to see fast technology improvements and very competitive pricing for cameras with new and better sensors!

 

 

At the moment any camera might be a better investment than the M 8.2. If you have already a M8 wait a couple of years for the Leica M9 with a better (full frame?) sensor. In the meantime it is better to invest in some lenses (new 2.8/28mm, 3.4/24mm).

If you have Nikonlenses think about the Nikon D700 (=D3 image quality!) in a few months less than Euro 2000,- .......

 

Albert

Aruba Photos - Aruba PhotoRefresh

[jackal]

 

If you or I can't afford a new body or lens, then that's a shame. I'd like the lenses to be cheaper, but they're not, and no amount of hand wringing is going to make them so. We have what we have, and have to accept that, no matter how much we'd like things to be different.

 

 

Ahhh, so what you're saying is that that's the way it is, just accept it. In one way, you're just telling me to be quiet. Similarly jaap is saying the same thing, 'if you think the price is not justified then don't buy it"

 

Well, sorry but its not as simple as that. I have investment here, I have jobs to complete, a future to think about and I pretty miffed that Leica don't have me as a pro user in mind with this future strategy of theirs.

 

1300 GBP price increase for a black logo, quieter shutter and a bit of sticky grip tape is a joke. The 8.2 modifications are part of continual improvement of the SAME camera, required and necessary just to maintain current sales... they shouldn't necessarily cost anything extra at all. By all means increase prices in line with inflation but to hike the price up by over 30% as if its some brand new uber-enhanced incarnation or indeed a whole new M digital body is just ludicrous.

 

I haven't moaned about the M8 once on here. In fact i've always defended it. I don't have a problem with the sensor noise and I am happy to wait even longer for a FF camera. I'd probably still be 100% happy if it weren't for this M8 price hike whcih in my mind is a very significant symbol and portentous of very tricky times ahead if you are invested in this system pragmatically for real paid work.

[jaapv]

It is not a price hike. As I understand it the original M8 is still for sale at a price point of about 4000 Euro. Just imagine the handwringing going on if the M8.2 would cost the same, and owners who just bought an M8 a few weeks ago could upgrade to the tune of 1500 Euro....

Of course I understand the economics. So what I meant to say; You must decide if the added value is worth the extra cost. If not, the buying decision should be negative. But accept that the equation may be diferent for others. I wish my tools of trade were cheap too...

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[wattsy]

It is not a price hike. As I understand it the original M8 is still for sale at a price point of about 4000 Euro.

 

You are choosing to miss jackal's point which is the signal that the M8.2 price sends regarding the M system road map. Those of us currently invested in the system will need to think carefully about whether we see a long term future with it.

 

Just imagine the handwringing going on if the M8.2 would cost the same, and owners who just bought an M8 a few weeks ago could upgrade to the tune of 1500 Euro....

 

That's the way it's always been with technology and new versions of products. If you buy something today there is always the chance that the product will be soon be replaced by a 'better' one at the same (or a cheaper) price. Why should it be any different when you buy a Leica?