delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #201 Posted September 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I resolved not to mention the just announced Canon 5d but I think it makes the main point about the M8.2. I bought my 5D three years ago at £2200 shortly after its intro at £2500 in the UK. The new 5D2 now introduced at £2299. For the same price Canon have included substantial improvements in the camera. And that intro price will come down! 18 months ago I bought my first M8 at £2990 list price in the UK. Now Leica introduce M8.2 at £3990 with mainly cosmetic changes. What has changed in Leica's set up to justify this price hike. OK they include a saphire LCD cover, I'd much rather have a 920,000 res LCD. Leica will always be expensive but oh dear oh dear. And dont give me that stuff about resale value for the M8 - as it gets further behind in basic technology its SH price will plummet. Who will want it? Those who wish to get into an ever more expensive DRF system? Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Hi delander †, Take a look here M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted September 17, 2008 Share #202 Posted September 17, 2008 And on top of all of this the ever continuing substantial price hikes for minor improvements. Not only that look at all the extra add-ons you have to have, finders, magnifiers, eyepiece correction lenses, extra handholds etc, all costing a fortune. I really don't get this as an argument at all. Do I expect my car to be continually improved by the manufacturer? Or my fridge? Or even my M7? How is this different from any other camera manufacturer? If you want an improvement in your Canon 5D, for example, you buy a whole new Canon 5D II. For over two grand. AFAIK, Leica are the only company willing to offer an upgrade to existing cameras to bring them up to spec with a current one. (someone will prove me wrong now). I bet that Leica are wishing that they'd never even mentioned the possibility of upgrades to existing cameras, gievn the amount of grief and stick they have taken since they were annoucned. All the add ons that you can buy are not actually necessary (apart from maybe the dioptre correction lens) for the majority of users, and some are part and parcel of using a rangefinder, rather than an SLR. It's what you have to do if you want to be able to use a wide angle or a telephoto. It comes with the territory. As for Leica accessories costing a fortune - well, yes, they do, but you can buy Hong Kong sourced magnifiers and Voigtlander viewfinders if you wish, at a considerable saving. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #203 Posted September 17, 2008 Both the price and technology gap between Leica and other cameras is increasing and there seems to be no good reason for it. That is what is worrying me for staying with Leica in the future. Jeff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 17, 2008 Share #204 Posted September 17, 2008 I resolved not to mention the just announced Canon 5d but I think it makes the main point about the M8.2. I bought my 5D three years ago at £2200 shortly after its intro at £2500 in the UK. The new 5D2 now introduced at £2299. For the same price Canon have included substantial improvements in the camera. And that intro price will come down! 18 months ago I bought my first M8 at £2990 list price in the UK. Now Leica introduce M8.2 at £3990 with mainly cosmetic changes. What has changed in Leica's set up to justify this price hike. OK they include a saphire LCD cover, I'd much rather have a 920,000 res LCD. Leica will always be expensive but oh dear oh dear. And dont give me that stuff about resale value for the M8 - as it gets further behind in basic technology its SH price will plummet. Who will want it? Those who wish to get into an ever more expensive DRF system? Jeff Not that stuff about Leica - I don't believe in selling my leicas- But how many Canon users, caught up in the 18 months upgrade treadmill, will put their 5D out with the trash to get the newest and the bestest? Quite a considerable number, I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 17, 2008 Share #205 Posted September 17, 2008 Both the price and technology gap between Leica and other cameras is increasing and there seems to be no good reason for it. That is what is worrying me for staying with Leica in the future. Jeff. When you bought your M8, did you expect to replace it every two years like you would do with a Canon or Nikon or a Sony or whatever? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #206 Posted September 17, 2008 When you bought your M8, did you expect to replace it every two years like you would do with a Canon or Nikon or a Sony or whatever? It is not as simple as that. If Leica had released an M9 now with 'proper' improvements at the same price as the original M8 then I would upgrade in about 6 months It is the escalating price differential which is concerning me (and I suspect many others), and I dont see a reason for it apart from leveraging the brand name. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted September 17, 2008 Share #207 Posted September 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Three years ago the GBP would buy you about 1.47 euros. Now it will only buy 1.26. While Leica has raised prices, much of the pain has been felt by overseas buyers through the strengthening of the euro against their local currencies. Doug Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #208 Posted September 17, 2008 Three years ago the GBP would buy you about 1.47 euros. Now it will only buy 1.26. While Leica has raised prices, much of the pain has been felt by overseas buyers through the strengthening of the euro against their local currencies. Doug Well I think you will find that Leica have jacked up the Euro prices just as much. A strong Euro also has its advantages when purchasing material. And it is not just Leica versus the other 35mm format makers, even MF is coming down in price as those manufacturers compete for market share. And of course Canon cameras are not made in the UK so Canon have managed to absorb the depreciation of the pound sterling. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted September 17, 2008 Share #209 Posted September 17, 2008 Yes, but Ed's annoyance at this trollish and clearly opinionated person is understandable Not really, as it's just a damn camera. Anyway, the biggest problem as I see it is that upon spending thousands of dollars for an M8 (and then hundreds more for filters etc etc) and having it have to go back to Solms twice in a year I was forced to go buy a Nikon D3 in order to have something truly reliable and full frame. I like my M8, but hell if I'm going to buy another one and am even on the fence about pumping still more $ into the one I have even though I like the sound of a couple of upgrades. Like Vieri, I've actually found going back to my M7 to be the true M experience. Who knows, I may end up dumping the M8 altogether. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #210 Posted September 17, 2008 Actually, the M8 is like a Ferrari with a 1 litre Ford engine in it, which they then upgraded by adding a saphire windscreen, different leather seats a soft action ignition button and a black Ferrari badge to make it less conspicuous and then added £20000 to the price. LOL, I'm havin fun. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 17, 2008 Share #211 Posted September 17, 2008 Rubbish. Let the M8 images speak for themselves Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #212 Posted September 17, 2008 Rubbish. Let the M8 images speak for themselves They do and the world has moved on over the last two years Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
intex Posted September 17, 2008 Share #213 Posted September 17, 2008 I keep on seeing the M8.2 in black, I supposedly have one on order in brushed chrome, is that not available now??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted September 17, 2008 Share #214 Posted September 17, 2008 Well I think you will find that Leica have jacked up the Euro prices just as much. A strong Euro also has its advantages when purchasing material. And it is not just Leica versus the other 35mm format makers, even MF is coming down in price as those manufacturers compete for market share. And of course Canon cameras are not made in the UK so Canon have managed to absorb the depreciation of the pound sterling. Jeff Agree that a strong euro would be an advantage if Leica were sourcing its material outside the EU, but I don't know that they do. Certainly their glass is Germany sourced. The yen is actually just about where it was 2004/05 - between 185 and 200. Today it's 187. Regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 17, 2008 Share #215 Posted September 17, 2008 The M8.2 will be available in chrome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica007 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share #216 Posted September 17, 2008 The M8 was my first Leica and first RF. Now I own 2 MPs, am getting a M3, and I am selling my 2 M8s. So, I am bailing out of the M8, but certainly not out of Leica. Not after I got acquainted with the RF way and with Leica glass... I might be in the smallest minority here, but I am quite sure I am not the only one. The criticism is not about Leica per se, but M8 - the DRF. No one is questioning Leica's analogue models and their ever lasting charm. But the obsolescence of M8 / 8.2 in today's and future world of DIGITAL photography and the extortionist pricing strategy. Leica was and is always good at mechanical engineering (good old Germans, after all!) but have fallen short in the electronics and software development departments. To Andy and Jaap: You can or used to put various types of 35mm films in your analogue cameras and get great photos. But can you do the same with your M8/8.2's sensor ? Other camera makers are trying to reach close to film quality image in all lighting conditions : they are not there yet .. but they are in the race. Where is M8's sensor - beyond bright sunny days? The main questions are squarely about (i) the quality of the sensor and processor, (ii) mechanical capability (e.g. shutter noise - which they more or less have solved ) and (iii) high price for relatively inferior sensor and processor, when compared to other similarly priced cameras. If you see, the quality of the sensor and processor is the battleground :in between 2006-2008, every camera maker has made vast improvement in that field and constantly doing so except Leica. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 17, 2008 Share #217 Posted September 17, 2008 If you see, the quality of the sensor and processor is the battleground :in between 2006-2008, every camera maker has made vast improvement in that field and constantly doing so except Leica. Does that mean that with the 5D Mk II Canon have finally caught up with the M8 at low ISO? Or will we have to wait for the Mk III? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted September 17, 2008 Share #218 Posted September 17, 2008 Jeff makes a keen point that some are choosing to treat tangentially (or argue argue completely obliquely). His point, at its marrow, is that of value. Other camera companies are simply, and inarguably, delivering far greater cost/performance value than Leica. Frequency of model updates has absolutely no relation to this assertion. (I've no immediate needs or intentions to throw away my wonderful Canon EOS 5D for its successor.) The message that many are trying to send to Leica is to wake up and save their ship from scuttling under the weight of its hubris and self-delusion. The Leica brand value is quickly dimming with each new generation of amateur photographers. Most of today's kids (20's) think buying such an expensive little old camera is insane, and I admit to wondering if they're quite right. Leica is pounding its chest in the mirror, trying hard to assert their quality and importance, while watching themselves slowly disappear from the reflection. I resolved not to mention the just announced Canon 5d but I think it makes the main point about the M8.2. I bought my 5D three years ago at £2200 shortly after its intro at £2500 in the UK. The new 5D2 now introduced at £2299. For the same price Canon have included substantial improvements in the camera. And that intro price will come down! 18 months ago I bought my first M8 at £2990 list price in the UK. Now Leica introduce M8.2 at £3990 with mainly cosmetic changes. What has changed in Leica's set up to justify this price hike. OK they include a saphire LCD cover, I'd much rather have a 920,000 res LCD. Leica will always be expensive but oh dear oh dear. And dont give me that stuff about resale value for the M8 - as it gets further behind in basic technology its SH price will plummet. Who will want it? Those who wish to get into an ever more expensive DRF system? Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica007 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share #219 Posted September 17, 2008 Does that mean that with the 5D Mk II Canon have finally caught up with the M8 at low ISO? Or will we have to wait for the Mk III? We still don't know. However, we are comparing a £2270 camera (whose price will come down in a few months) with a £4000 one, isn't it? How about comparing 1ds3 and M8.2 ? and at both high and low ISO levels, and oh yes! mega pixel counting, exposure bracketing, etc etc etc .... or, Nikon D3 (with spare cash at hand:cool: ) and M8.2 ? M8/2 might be a Low ISO king - or a queen, if you prefer - but that's on a sunny snappy day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 17, 2008 Share #220 Posted September 17, 2008 Does that mean that with the 5D Mk II Canon have finally caught up with the M8 at low ISO? Or will we have to wait for the Mk III? I am sure that the 5d2 sensor will be the equal at least of that in the 1ds3 which is far better than that found in the M8 at all ISO. Perhaps it would be a good idea if those who really feel that the M8 sensor is so good could spend some time with one of the more modern FF sensors. And by some time I dont mean a few hours. And at the end of the time make an honest assessment free of any 'Leica love impulses'. I revise my analogy of the M8 to the 1 litre ford engined Ferrari. More appropriately it should have been a 2.8 litre Ford Capri engine, the Ferrari should have been equipped with special very expensive IR filters on its lights and of course a small tank that only allowed one to go about 100 miles before finding a gas station. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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