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M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990


leica007

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Whereas I think there will be a market for the M8-2, I think it will be much smaller than that for the M8-1. I would be surprised if more than 5% of M8 owners upgrade to an M8-2. When Joe (keen photographer) Public sees he can get a Canon 5D Mk2, 24 to 105 L lens and the new 24/1.4 for about the price of an M8-2 body on its own, he would have to be a real RF devotee to go the Leica route. Having both an M8 and 9 Leica fit lenses, I have a strong vested interest in the continuing success of Leica. I regret I feel that the M8-2 is not a strong enough product at the price, in todays market to cut the mustard. I hope the AFRika is going to be a stunner as otherwise, I am pessimistic for the future.

 

Wilson

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I should be important to Leica, I would like a digital M but the product falls short, I could be a new customer if they got the basics right. The concept is good, but the product is half baked.

 

Kevin.

 

Not IMO. It seems there are a lot of people like you and IMHO people like you will always find something that isn't quite right, falls short, about a Leica Digital M, in fact about any Leica camera. Otherwise at some point in your photography life you would of own a Leica but there was always something that didn't measure up. Whether it was features or cost.

Why should Leica as a company care about pleasing a group of people that are NOT going to buy there product no matter what they come out with at any price.

 

Then you, as a person that has never owned a Leica camera of any kind, come to this forum and point out to all of use that have bought, enjoyed owning and using at least one, if not many more, Leica cameras that we are all stupid for buying and using a inferior product.

 

Pleas go take a long walk off a short pier

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And at the other end there is the Zeiss 1700mm f4, for which Zeiss do a Hasselblad V to Zeiss Ikon (M fit) adapter. Jaap - do you actually own the Kinoptic and has the conversion to your one got a focusing adapter as it looks?

 

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I was pondering the Leica prices and if we take two contemparies the M4 and the Nikon F3, the original list price of the M4 body was about 3x higher than the F3 (roughly). Now a mint- M4 is about 3000 euro at Schouten select (ex. vat) but 2500 should do it for the normal market. An F3 is selling at approx 250 euro, or less.

 

So the M4 has increased in value compared to the original list price (about 3000 NLG = 1500euro)

F3 has decreased in value (1200 NLG = 550 euro).

 

So Leica is less expensive than Nikon. Whether this holds for the digital age is another matter of course. Note we also have inflation to consider which means that an M4 is actually worth less than it was new - but not much less.

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I was pondering the Leica prices and if we take two contemparies the M4 and the Nikon F3, the original list price of the M4 body was about 3x higher than the F3 (roughly). Now a mint- M4 is about 3000 euro at Schouten select (ex. vat) but 2500 should do it for the normal market. An F3 is selling at approx 250 euro, or less.

 

So the M4 has increased in value compared to the original list price (about 3000 NLG = 1500euro)

F3 has decreased in value (1200 NLG = 550 euro).

 

So Leica is less expensive than Nikon. Whether this holds for the digital age is another matter of course. Note we also have inflation to consider which means that an M4 is actually worth less than it was new - but not much less.

 

3000 or 2000 Euros for a mint minus M4 sounds quite high unless it is a black paint M4. A mint minus M4 should not cost more than 1200 Euros. Depreciation has more to do with supply/demand and for the M4 it is low/high and high/high for the Nikon.

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Agree I did some further digging & the prices I mentioned for the M4 may be too high. There is quite a lot of variation which makes this hard to do anyway but 1000 - 3000 euro is about the sensible range unless it is not mint, mint-. OTOH a decent F3 can be got at 100 euros I would expect if you dug around long enough. The general point I think remains that the Leica stuff depreciates a lot slower than other brands typically do.

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I get the depreciation side of the argument (e.g. Leica M vs. Nikon F), as I've already mentioned in my last post, but this applies to ANALOGUE camera BODIES of Leica vis-a-vis others.

 

Analogue camera is basically a light tight box with mechanism to operate the shutter and a bit here and there, e.g. good rf. Good quality lens and films take care of the rest. Whereas digital camera bodies have to take up more 'responsibilities' to give you the desired photo. A DIGITAL BODY is technologically more demanding.

 

If you think that 20 years from now your M8 will fetch you 5000-1000 euros, then you will be praying for some collector to descend on your door-step, not a regular user. Think about computers, would you buy a 1988 desktop to process your photos or even browse the Leica forum? redundancy is pretty high, nah?

 

I can confidently say that (my) Leica MP is a supreme and sublime machine, and peerless in the WHOLE analogue 35mm camera world, and will occupy that position as long as films are produced. But can anyone say that about their M8/8.2 body (unless you parochially consider only the DRF market)?

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hen you, as a person that has never owned a Leica camera of any kind, come to this forum and point out to all of use that have bought, enjoyed owning and using at least one, if not many more, Leica cameras that we are all stupid for buying and using a inferior product.

 

Pleas go take a long walk off a short pier

 

Blimey, why are you always so defensive? Whether KevinA is deliberately trying to wind up a few of the regulars I couldn't say, but he's certainly got your goat. I should also point out that you are the one bringing up the point that you might be "stupid for buying and using an inferior product". I don't understand, why would you give such a shit about what somebody else (who you don't know from Adam) thinks?

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Blimey, why are you always so defensive? Whether KevinA is deliberately trying to wind up a few of the regulars I couldn't say, but he's certainly got your goat. I should also point out that you are the one bringing up the point that you might be "stupid for buying and using an inferior product". I don't understand, why would you give such a shit about what somebody else (who you don't know from Adam) thinks?

Yes, but Ed's annoyance at this trollish and clearly opinionated person is understandable

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But at £4000 I won't be buying the M8.2 because I don't consider it a useful investment. To be blunt, it doesn't stack up well against the rest of the market even now; and it certainly won't in a year's time.

 

All good points Neil that I'd imagine most people who are not signed-up members of some Leica cult would agree with. Let's face it, a camera like the M8.2 really needs to sell to existing M8 owners (as well as that dwindling market of those who haven't yet jumped to a digital RF) if it's going to be anything like a success. If it had been priced at £2990 RRP like the M8 was when it first hit the market I'd have been tempted later in the year to sell my oldest M8 (which will go out of warranty in about 6 weeks time) and replace it with an 8.2. The price difference (about a grand with the VAT stripped out) would just about justify gaining another two years of warranty and the small improvements (taken together) that the M8.2 has over the M8. I'm sure I wouldn't have been alone in this thinking. As it stands, the cost of 'upgrading' this way is not going to be worth it.

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All good points Neil that I'd imagine most people who are not signed-up members of some Leica cult would agree with. Let's face it, a camera like the M8.2 really needs to sell to existing M8 owners (as well as that dwindling market of those who haven't yet jumped to a digital RF) if it's going to be anything like a success. If it had been priced at £2990 RRP like the M8 was when it first hit the market I'd have been tempted later in the year to sell my oldest M8 (which will go out of warranty in about 6 weeks time) and replace it with an 8.2. The price difference (about a grand with the VAT stripped out) would just about justify gaining another two years of warranty and the small improvements (taken together) that the M8.2 has over the M8. I'm sure I wouldn't have been alone in this thinking. As it stands, the cost of 'upgrading' this way is not going to be worth it.

 

I'm with you. Same position as you are. Now I'll probably take some upgrade, maybe shutter and glass.

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All good points Neil that I'd imagine most people who are not signed-up members of some Leica cult would agree with. Let's face it, a camera like the M8.2 really needs to sell to existing M8 owners (as well as that dwindling market of those who haven't yet jumped to a digital RF) if it's going to be anything like a success. If it had been priced at £2990 RRP like the M8 was when it first hit the market I'd have been tempted later in the year to sell my oldest M8 (which will go out of warranty in about 6 weeks time) and replace it with an 8.2. The price difference (about a grand with the VAT stripped out) would just about justify gaining another two years of warranty and the small improvements (taken together) that the M8.2 has over the M8. I'm sure I wouldn't have been alone in this thinking. As it stands, the cost of 'upgrading' this way is not going to be worth it.

 

Ian,

 

You've got it in a nutshell. Like Jaap, I am going for an upgrade, probably LCD and frames, as I like 1/8000th of a sec for shallow DOF in bright sunlight with Lux lenses and the noise has never worried me too much - I used to use a Mamiya 645 - Kerlannnnggg - crash then clickety-clickety-click as you wind on.

 

Wilson

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There have been a lot of good points in this discussion concerning Leica and other cameras. I suspect that quite a lot of those who bought M8s having never bought a RF camera before have already bailed out of Leica. I am one of those and I am still here but beginning to wonder where Leica is going price wise and technology wise.

 

I remember when the Nikon D3 came out, quite a few forum members jumped in there and have never been seen since. Guy Mancuso has jumped ship, he who bought more Leica M kit than almost anyone.

 

I want a better sensor than the one in the M8. The sensor is too noisy, does not have enough pixels in todays world and I dont actually like the look of the RAW files when compared to those produced by more recent developments. They are simply too primitive in their rendering.

 

I noticed one in particular on the Leica website the image of an ice cream cone. The sky in that image is similar to what I have been getting. I am sure if viewed at 100% it would be awfully grainy. I'll add grain if I want to but I dont want to see it out of the camera.

 

And on top of all of this the ever continuing substantial price hikes for minor improvements. Not only that look at all the extra add-ons you have to have, finders, magnifiers, eyepiece correction lenses, extra handholds etc, all costing a fortune.

 

In the last 18months Leica have introduced more lenses than Canon. They dont need to work in that area, they need to improve the sensor and electronics.

 

Someone earlier has said that the M8.2 wont sell much. I agree i'm afraid and if the minor imporvements cost £1000 how on earth is Leica ever going to sell a M9 to anyone but multi-millionaires. As that the club I have joined? or is Leica a serious camera company with a future?

 

Soon I will be able to get some fine Zeiss lenses for my Canon DSLRs, I wont be giving Leica anymore of my money until I see the specs and price of the M9.

 

Sorry for the rant, but my disappointment in Leica is growing daily.

 

Jeff

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There have been a lot of good points in this discussion concerning Leica and other cameras. I suspect that quite a lot of those who bought M8s having never bought a RF camera before have already bailed out of Leica. I am one of those and I am still here but beginning to wonder where Leica is going price wise and technology wise.

 

...

 

The M8 was my first Leica and first RF. Now I own 2 MPs, am getting a M3, and I am selling my 2 M8s. So, I am bailing out of the M8, but certainly not out of Leica. Not after I got acquainted with the RF way and with Leica glass... :D

 

I might be in the smallest minority here, but I am quite sure I am not the only one.

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I guess I can't add much to what has been said already, but I'll give it a shot. The current M8 was in development before Kaufmann had control - though it seems he was a share holder, but not a majority decision maker. What all M8 owners have is an excellent camera that was a result of a 'panic! quick!, we must get into the market with a digital M!' No news with that.

 

But remember that because Kaufmann has a vision, and is extremely dedicated to the brand - is it asking too much to stay the course correction after years of do nothing decisions? Well that's 'a dang if you, dang if you don't' decision. He has to right the ship and bring it back, and unfortunately the M8 and the current solutions are stop gaps. No news there either.

 

It would be ideal if they gave everyone who dumped the cash already a HUGE discount on upgrades and maybe they should - maybe all M8 owners should sign a petition on the forum. It's nice for them to listen - but action is more impressive. In the land of digital camera's, repairs after ten years later are probably never going to happen - from Leica or anyone else.

 

This will/be/is a major issue for the digital marketplace - for all the users of all the brands. Personally, even without an M8, it sucks. Start the petition - have it say something like - "We the undersigned want our equipment that costs thousands to be repairable and upgradeable in the future, or returnable as a trade-in towards new equipment....."

 

It has to start somewhere....maybe we all should sign it.......

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