M8.2 Price: $6295 / £3990

[jaapv]

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Originally Posted by andybarton

Do you now or have you ever owned a Leica, Kevin?

 

 

 

Then what the hell are you doing on the Leica camera forums and why in the M8 section.

And what other digital Rangefinder camera does it compete with that it falls so short.

Obviously brainwashed by the Japanese marketing steamroller....

[KevinA]

So the:

Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 f/4

Summilux 21 f/1.4

Elmarit 21 f/2.8

Summilux 24 f/1.4

Elmarit 24 f/2.8

Elmar 24 f/3.8

Summicron 28 f/2

Elmarit 28 f/2.8

aren't enough for you, let alone 50 years worth of older LTM and M-mount lenses?

 

X by 1.3. no it's pretty poor. How many of them talk to the camera in a modern way Leica designed?

That list proves my point, no WA angles by Leica, well not very wide anyway.

 

Kevin.

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[barjohn]

Someone said they had to price it higher to protect M8 buyers (investors) to keep them happy. When all you are really doing is fixing flaws in the original design why does it matter if you can buy the new M8 for the same price as the old one? You do what other vendors sometimes do and that is allow free upgrades for cameras purchased within X days of the announcement for the new camera. Buyers that just bought are made happy and new buyers are just getting what they paid for. Other buyers can upgrade for the extra $ if the features are worth it to them. Yes, the older M8s will be worth less but so is an older model used car and it doesn't stop someone from buying a new car. In fact it will help Leica sales by making the camera available to a new generation of camera buyers that cannot afford the current model.

[farnz]

X by 1.3. no it's pretty poor. How many of them talk to the camera in a modern way Leica designed?

That list proves my point, no WA angles by Leica, well not very wide anyway.

 

Kevin.

To the contrary: this list disproves your point. It sounds like you're talking about Ultra Wide Angle lenses not Wide Angles.

 

All of the lenses I listed are Wide Angle, which is normally accepted as wider than a standard (50 mm) lens, even with the 1.33 crop factor; 16 -> 21, 18 -> 24, 21 -> 28, 28 -> 38.

 

Would you care to explain what you mean by "How many of them talk to the camera in a modern way Leica designed?"? You claim to have deep knowledge of modern Leica cameras for someone who's by his own admission never owned one. Or is this a 'sound-byte' that you picked up perhaps?

 

Pete.

[KevinA]

Originally Posted by andybarton

Do you now or have you ever owned a Leica, Kevin?

 

 

 

Then what the hell are you doing on the Leica camera forums and why in the M8 section.

And what other digital Rangefinder camera does it compete with that it falls so short.

 

I should be important to Leica, I would like a digital M but the product falls short, I could be a new customer if they got the basics right. The concept is good, but the product is half baked. There are probably more people like me than there are M8 owners, potential customers that see a concept we like but badly produced, I don't for one minute think this is the product Leica wanted it to be or thought it would be.

I like the idea of no compromise lenses, I like the idea of a small quality camera. That's what it should be but it just isn't, bits of it are, as a complete package it fails.

A reportage camera that is poor in low light, a camera to use on the fly that has to become two separate parts just to load a card, a camera which has to have extra filters attached to work properly, poor wide angle choice, £4k and it is not weather sealed. What did Leica build the "M" reputation on? a bullet proof machine that gave top quality results. No one with any sense of perspective would put an M 8 in that class (bullet proof).

Just because it's the only choice of digital RF should not mean that major faults are excused.

I'm here because I would like Leica to make the camera they intended, a camera that gets the basics right in a modern way, no bells and whistles just good solid competitive performance. I'm here because I live in a free...ish world and can be here and I can give an opinion. If Leica are to go forward they need me and others like me on board and not just a crowd of "it's a Leica" so everything is forgiven, like it or not I'm the future of Leica if they intend to keep making cameras, the shrinking customer base now is not enough.

 

Kevin.

[ndjambrose]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Kevin's points. Just because he's not an M8 owner doesn't mean there's no truth in what he says.

 

Here are some observations.

 

• In the professional camera sector the M8 has worst high ISO performance by quite a long margin, and a number of well documented flaws that are not known to be fixed. It also lacks certain desirable features in a pro-spec camera such as dust/weather sealing, and a decent buffer. There are other cameras that can shoot 50 consecutive raw+jpg images at max resolution at 9 fps for several seconds without filling the buffer. The M8 can take around 5 consecutive shots at 1.5 fps and then needs over 30 seconds to clear.
   
   
  
• The M8's resolving power is already limited in practical terms for many purposes by limitations of the sensor. Competitors' full-frame sensors have more pixels, less noise, and are capable of producing higher quality enlargements. Irrespective of how good the glass is, the M8 is at an immediate disadvantage for many uses.
   
   
  
• Leica lenses are sublime, but there are other systems with as good or nearly as good glass. There are some Canon and Nikon lenses that can compete quite credibly with summilux lenses for around 10% of the price.
   
   
  
• The M8 is expensive relative to the rest of the market. On a feature for feature basis it doesn't compare well with even the most moderate cameras from other marques.
  

 

Now, none of those things stopped me buying an M8 and using it for plenty of personal and commercial work. And I love Ms as much as anyone - I have four of them. But at £4000 I won't be buying the M8.2 because I don't consider it a useful investment. To be blunt, it doesn't stack up well against the rest of the market even now; and it certainly won't in a year's time.

 

And yes - the M8 is unique in that it's the only production DRF in the market. But it's not the only camera, and unfortunately that has a bearing too. Beyond a certain price point people evaluate potential purchases with more scrutiny. I suspect the M8.2 is priced too aggressively to appeal to new owners, and doesn't offer a big enough improvement to appeal to existing owners.

[KevinA]

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To the contrary: this list disproves your point. It sounds like you're talking about Ultra Wide Angle lenses not Wide Angles.

 

All of the lenses I listed are Wide Angle, which is normally accepted as wider than a standard (50 mm) lens, even with the 1.33 crop factor; 16 -> 21, 18 -> 24, 21 -> 28, 28 -> 38.

 

Would you care to explain what you mean by "How many of them talk to the camera in a modern way Leica designed?"? You claim to have deep knowledge of modern Leica cameras for someone who's by his own admission never owned one. Or is this a 'sound-byte' that you picked up perhaps?

 

Pete.

I thought Leica coded their lenses to tune via software with the camera, is that not correct? Is the 16mm still made?

I don't own a thumb screw either although I can grasp the concept of how they work

Kevin.

[ken_tanaka]

Neil: You've made thoughtful and well-crafted points that absolutely mirror my own feelings. (And, yes, I own 2 M8s and an M7.)

 

This is a prediction, not a hope: Leica will do very badly with the M8.2 at the new price point. The M8's large price increase in late 2007 dramatically evaporated the camera's market. This next increase will darn near send it into extinction, particularly given a Western world mired in financial chaos.

 

p.s. I very much like your photography. You've a keen eye and quick reflexes.

[KevinA]

Obviously brainwashed by the Japanese marketing steamroller....

 

I buy what's on the market and does the job I need it to, I've had Hasselblad Sinar Plaubel Kodak Rollei Linhof Corfield Nikon Canon and a Razzle Dog and more no doubt. Right now Canon pays my bills. I'm probably more open minded about cameras than most here.

 

Kevin.

[twf]

Leica has made some cosmetic changes, but nothing that is really necessary to up the price of the M8.

 

It is too bad that they did not make some changes that would put it in a world class status of digital cameras. The lenses are great and world class, the body of the camera is wonderful to use on the streets, and it does take nice photographs.

 

I must say that if the Canon 5D was not so big when it has the lenses mounted, it would be my choice even though their lenses are not quite as good.

 

Leia should have addressed some of the other issue before they introduce a cosmetic update at a very high price.

[terrycioni]

Neil: You've made thoughtful and well-crafted points that absolutely mirror my own feelings. (And, yes, I own 2 M8s and an M7.)

 

This is a prediction, not a hope: Leica will do very badly with the M8.2 at the new price point. The M8's large price increase in late 2007 dramatically evaporated the camera's market. This next increase will darn near send it into extinction, particularly given a Western world mired in financial chaos.

 

p.s. I very much like your photography. You've a keen eye and quick reflexes.

 

All good points for sure. I have been living under a rock on the costs to uprade - until I read Sean Reid's M8.2 information.

 

To do three available upgrades the cost is $1700 pre-tax.

 

When I add that to the cost of the M8 as of November 2006 - $5500CDN+$1750CDN = 7200CDN pre-tax. Yikes and I have two bodies, and I will have to do some serious thinking before proceeding.

[sean_reid]

They done anything to the body shell or are tripods still a no no?

 

Body shell is the same and tripods are still fine.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[KM-25]

I must say that if the Canon 5D was not so big when it has the lenses mounted, it would be my choice even though their lenses are not quite as good.

 

With the new Canon 5D-II and 24mm 1.4-II, I can bet you huge money that really good reportage shooters are going to choose the latter pair at $4,000 rather than the M8.2 and 21mm 1.4 at over 12 grand.....easily.

 

This is not the time for Leica to me jacking prices sky high, many great documentary and journalism shooters have no problems getting the shot and getting the heck out of there with a 5D or D700 sized SLR. The thought that a good PJ needs a small Leica sized camera has been a myth for decades.

[blakley]

X by 1.3. no it's pretty poor. How many of them talk to the camera in a modern way Leica designed?

That list proves my point, no WA angles by Leica, well not very wide anyway.

 

Kevin.

 

Srsly?

 

So what percentage of your pictures are taken with a lens wider than 28mm on full-frame?

 

And given that you can get a 12mm (= 16mm full frame) for the M8, what percentage of your pictures are taken with a lens wider than 16mm on full-frame?

 

Sorry, but this complaint just strikes me as absurd.

[andybarton]

No never. I would in a heart beat if I thought it was up to the task, I have and use a film RF, not so much now. I admire Leica and it's contribution to photography. I like the idea of a small quality camera with superb lenses, I have used a M6 fleetingly but not on an assignment. The M8 misses the mark for me on several fronts, I really hoped for an upgrade that dealt with the important failings, i.e decent noise performance, IR issues and if ever a camera was meant for wide angle lenses it's this one, so where are the Leica WA?

Reliability still seams suspect. The price I could live with if it was up to par with the modern equipment it competes with in basic performance.

 

Kevin.

 

Thank you. I will therefore take your comments in this context.

[jaapv]

X by 1.3. no it's pretty poor. How many of them talk to the camera in a modern way Leica designed?

That list proves my point, no WA angles by Leica, well not very wide anyway.

 

Kevin.

Talk to the camera in a modern way:confused: Would you care to elaborate on that cryptic statement?

[jaapv]

Srsly?

 

So what percentage of your pictures are taken with a lens wider than 28mm on full-frame?

 

And given that you can get a 12mm (= 16mm full frame) for the M8, what percentage of your pictures are taken with a lens wider than 16mm on full-frame?

 

Sorry, but this complaint just strikes me as absurd.

Wrong. In third party the widest available is 9.8 mm/ f1.8

[leica007]

OLD Canon 5d on B&Hphoto : $2349.95

 

NEW Canon 5d MKII : suggested retail price : $ 2699

 

Price difference: $349.05 !! most probably 5d2 will sell at a lower price than the suggested retail price, and hence, there might not be any difference in price between the older and the newer models.

 

That's call an upgrade and a pricing strategy.

 

I understand that Leica is a smaller company and no match for Canon's financial prowess, so one cannot expect similar fast technological innovation and pricing strategy from Leica, as it sells less in volume - but then, much of these constraints are Leica's own creation.

 

Also we need to factor in the proposition that depreciation on Leica models is much less than Canon’s, so taken together, Canon's new price is not that attractive as you need to invest more (fresh) money to upgrade.

 

But again, as I see it, digital world changes very soon and purchase decisions are made on the state-of-the art technology available in the market vis-à-vis the cost. So, what holds good for the analogue camera body market does not hold good for the digital one; in the fast technologically changing and aggressively priced world, Leica M8/2 is bound to look ANTIQUATED in the near future.

 

So, you get restricted to a small Leica DRf market, where people trade new and old ones, holding (for a while) the price of second hand M8s, but it is the same customer base Leica is serving and not adding new ones - who will shop around and go on to other platforms. And one day, heaven forbid .... this tiny digital Leica market will collap**....

[wlaidlaw]

Wrong. In third party the widest available is 9.8 mm/ f1.8

 

Jaap,

 

That is stretching it a bit. If it is the lens I am thinking about, it is a slightly "iffy" conversion of a Kinoptic Cine Lens and I think it is non-focusing.

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

It is the Kinoptic one,but not iffy. It is built like a tank and it does focus - down to 18 cm. At infinity it is a lens best used stopped down to f 8, close up the performance is better. But yes- it is a stretch, it is immense and heavy.... The lens hood is larger than the M8....