Leica tripod sockets

[EJohnE]

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I bought a good used Leica R8, and wrecked the shutter one week later! The camera is now en route Solms for repair. I suspect that use of my 30 year old Manfrotto tripod/head may have caused the damage. Leica refers to tripod thread to DIN 4503 standard for the later cameras. Does anyone know how long the thread which fits into the camera body should be to hold the camera steady, but not ruin the shutter? My tripod etc does no harm to the R3, nor my Olympus E-xx cameras.

 

If I know the proper length, I will grind the thread length down to that length on all heads, plates etc. Obviously I don't want to make the assembly unsteady.

 

Thanks, weeping profusely - boo hoo

 

EJohnE

[masjah]

John

 

Let's hope Andy Barton sees your thread - he is the (reluctant) authority on this subject. As I recall, earlier Manfrotto plate screws were too long, and caused significant damage to the R8. If I also recall correctly, Andy got some sort of recompense from Manfrotto, because the plate was of current production.

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[andybarton]

I am indeed an authority on R8s and Manfrottos...

 

Two years ago, I had exactly the same issue, only with a much more recent Manfrotto.

 

It turns out that pre 2006 Manfrotto brackets had screws that were not within DIN/ISO/British Standard tolerances. They were too long.

 

The wind on mechanism in the R8 is just inside the bottom plate, and the too long Manfrotto thread warps the plate sufficiently to damage the shutter mechanism. The R8 socket IS fully compliant to standards, btw.

 

I took this up with Manfrotto UK who not only refunded the repair cost to me (around £190, IIRC), but also provided me with a new plate. They accepted full responsibility. I have the name of their UK Customer Service fellow at the office somewhere, if that would help.

 

All Manfrotto plates post January 2007 are now fully standards compliant, and I understand that this does not affect the R9s, which have an even deeper tripod socket that the R8

[rob_x2004]

The R6.2 had a deeper socket, so does the R9 The motor drive for the R6, 6.2, 7 is full three thread engagement so apparently Leica forgot all about Andys compliance too. Its a Leica design fault they fixed in the R9.

[andybarton]

The R8 socket does meet the required standard, though.

[rob_x2004]

So did Millennium Footbridge.

[andybarton]

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The problem with the R8/Manfrotto was admitted to be the latter's responsibility

 

Not Leica's.

[EJohnE]

Thanks for the replies. However I still don't know how much thread should be available to screw into the R8!

I bought my Manfrotto in 1982, so can hardly blame them. I have only this year bought Manfrotto QR plates, so hope they comply with the R8's finicky requirements. In future, I will leave the motor-winder on the camera. At least that should be compliant, and any plate/tripod head attached to that should do no harm.

I also have been using my similar vintage hammerhead flash with the R3 and Olympus E-300. I recently discovered that my flash kicks out a triggering voltage of about 200 volts, so will in future use my recently bought Wein HS to HS adaptor rather than chance cooking any modern camera. Incidentally, my reasons for buying into Olympus were two - good dustproofing, and ability to use Leica R lenses via adaptor (Mine is from Cameraquest which is very precisely made, unlike some cheaper ones which need butchery to focus accurately at infinity).

Thanks again, John.

[ho_co]

... I bought my Manfrotto in 1982, so can hardly blame them.

John--

Unless:

1) Manfrotto was in compliance with standards when you bought; and

2) international standards were changed after that time, leaving Manfrotto out of compliance;

then it doesn't seem to me to make any difference how old the tripod is.

 

IMHO:

'Out of compliance then' + 'out of compliance now' means they bear some responsibility, though you may prefer not to press the issue.

 

At any rate, welcome to the forum; and I hope this gets straightened out smoothly. Good luck!

[EJohnE]

I wrote again a week or so ago, but the Mozilla monster or somesuch must have eaten it. I've had an email from the Australian Leica agents quoting the repair costs of my R8 as over $A1800 including freight, but excluding any other repair that may be found necessary on further dismantling of the beast. That is over $1000 more than I am prepared to spend on it when I can buy an R9 for about that sort of money, so will pay the estimate fee/freight/GST amounting to $A198 and use the camera body as an ornament on my copy stand. At least I have the R3 MOT and winder plus 9 Leica R lenses - 3 of which came with the R8. I suppose it could be worse, but at the moment am not so sure of that!

 

John.

[pgk]

Ouch! Thats a sad story.

 

Although I have nothing against other QR systems, personally I'm a big fan of the 'Arca style' QR plate system (there are now a host of manufacturers offering plates and clamps besides Arca - Really Right Stuff, Kirk, Arcratech, and loads more). When you consider that the thread used to bolt cameras onto tripods is 1/4" Whitworth (who went bust in the early part of the last century) and whilst it works, remains fiddly and slow, isn't it about time that manufacturers considered a better system - the Arca dovetail being pretty good. For anyone who hasn't tried these plates they are well worth considering and whilst not particularly cheap, they do make life a great deal easier and quicker if using a tripod, shooting panoramas or macro - I'm in the process of buiolding a macro set-up (1:1 to 10:1) based on parts available using this dovetail and its is working surprisingly well and is even field usable.

[andybarton]

I think that youre being a bit harsh on Whitworth.

 

Half the world is held together by Whitworth screws and bolts - they invented the first standardised screw thread. Talk about innovation.

 

The fact that they went bust, or were taken over, 100 years ago, isn't really relevant. Their standards still apply in terms of thread depth, angle and pitch hence its standard use for tripod sockets.

 

Someone whould have to invent an alternative that was better and adopted universally for there to be any "improvement".

[pgk]

You are right Andy - the Whitworth thread is extremely useful and does seem hold half of everything together. Unfortunately the other half is held together by metric threads and the incompatibilites that this causes can be incredibly frustrating! Try to get hold of Whitworth SS bolts in the UK is perhaps not impossible, but is difficult - its easier to buy them from the US!

 

But as a camera to tripod fixing it isn't ideal! I hoped that a manufacturer might consider a very low profile 'L' type Arca plate for the M8 but it seems that potential sales would be simply too low unfortunately - but IMHO the dovetail is an elegant solution without adding large mass or terribly ungainly lumss to a camera. I'll try to post a pic of my macro set-up for interest.

[rob_x2004]

So ... what holds the QR onto the bottom of the camera?

[giordano]

Try to get hold of Whitworth SS bolts in the UK is perhaps not impossible, but is difficult - its easier to buy them from the US!

 

Probably the Americans are selling you their standard UNC bolts and not Whitworth ones at all. In most sizes from 1/4 inch up both have the same number of threads per inch (20 TPI for 1/4 inch). The shapes of the threads are different, which matters in high-stress applications or if you care about such things. They are hard to distinguish by eye, but UNC bolt heads are size for size a tad smaller than Whitworth ones. A 7/16 AF spanner is correct for a 1/4 UNC bolt but too small for a 1/4 Whitworth one.

[pgk]

So ... what holds the QR onto the bottom of the camera?

 

True enough, but the whole point about Arca style QR plates is that most mount with a locator which effectively locks them into place on the camer and which then stops any rotation when they are placed on a tripod. A 'standard' dovetail could very easily be built into a camera body alongside a 1/4" threaded socket and is a far more elegant and better solution than a single threaded hole!

 

giordano

 

You are probably right but thethreaded items I buy are generally for marine use and are specifed as Whitworth threads - I sometimes manage to source UNC in the UK but they are scare in stainless.

[ellisson]

Regarding tripod plates for the R8/R9 motor winder, I wonder if the RRS plate (B44 in their inventory) works well without the clearance issue for the attachment screw that was mentioned in this thread.  Do any members use the RSS B44 plate on the R8 with motor winder, and can it be recommended for R8 winder attachment to an arca-swiss-type plate clamp?   Thanks!