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M8.2


plexi

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You're right, Meg Whitman works for the McCain campaign. Most doctors and the LHSA gang vote for the Republicans too.

 

A bit OT, but I think the Ebay reference was meant as an inside joke, since most of the convention participants knew about Whitman's working on the campaign. I don't think executive jets get a lot of space on Ebay. There is a specialized broker market for moving such stock.

 

Doug

 

PS: Terry, saw your note - Whitman is (was?) CEO of Ebay. LHSA may be a biker gang... who knows?

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Mani, you've had your ups and down on this forum, but for what it's worth, I thought your question was a reasonable one and put forward in a straightforward fashion.

 

FWIW, I've had an M8 since Nov. 2006 and, for whatever shortcomings it has, my photography has improved significantly as a result (at least that's what my wife says. :-) Whether the forecasted M8.2 is a significant improvement or not, I don't expect to upgrade. Out of my budget.

 

Cheers

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As I said before, they ought to be refining performance, and they may well be. No-one knows from this leak exactly what the M8.2 is, or is not, at this point :)

 

Jamie - a note of sanity. Not quite sure where this thread went - but thanks to those who made some informed comments on what is, after all, only conjecture. Maybe the weather is getting to people? It's been non-stop rain in Cheshire (UK) today. Me I'm off for a walk with my water-proofs in our local National Trust deer park a lovely place even on a rainy day... Maybe we all need to cool down? And remember - the M8 still captures good images..:o

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Interesting, I can induce it at will on all three of mine...

 

Now here is a photo I took about three weeks ago, that I would have thought was near guaranteed to produce green lines and it hasn't. Obviously I have a non-green line sensor.

 

Wilson

 

PS - For anyone interested, this was taken at the driver change for the night race for pre 1961 sports racing cars, during the Oldtimer Grand Prix week-end, Nurburgring, Germany. The car is my brother's 1957 Maserati 250S, which originally belonged to Manuel Fangio's manager. It came 1st in class for drum braked cars and 2nd overall - beating all the Testarossa's!

 

W

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All I asked was whether the M8.2 would bring in new buyers. I don't think so. The matter was open to debate. That's what my understanding of a forum is about.

 

Mani

 

I disagree, it may not be the M9 camera but it seems to be a step up from the M8 in some important areas. It depends of course on the price and also it is part of a package, the M system, and from the hints that have been dropped around here concerning new lenses and a lower cost M type camera that whole system will become more enticing.

 

I am looking forward to what comes out.

 

I am not a long time Leica user but if I look back over the way the have introduced new models in the past a lot of those were small upgrades.

 

Jeff

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FWIW I agree with Mani, at least to some extent.

 

If the M8.2 is what we think from the leaked info then it is a gradual but not a radical improvement of the M8. Nevertheless I am sure that even these changes constitute a considerable R&D effort and Leica should be applauded for that.

 

Will it improve sales? Sure it will bring new customers but not dramatically more. Knowing the plans for the immediate future might convince some that waited to take the plunge and buy one, so there should be a sales peak/improvement after Photokina.

 

If Leica announced a FF version M with a better high iso performance that would be completely different story. The question is whether that can be done at all without electronic noise removal (also conveniently forgetting the angle of attack & vignetting problem). From the interview with Dr. Kaufmann I gathered that Leica is not enthusiastic about noise removal as an option. On the other hand having a more vigorous noise and streaking removal algorithm available to use if desired would be interesting. If you shoot pictures in the dark no-one will complain too much about a slight loss of resolution, and it would make the camera even more versatile. Is there a technical reason why than can't be done on-board or in postprocessing?

 

Nevertheless I am still verry happy with my M8 just as it is and expect to remain so for a very long time.

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I *think* there is quite a bit that could be done in firmware about noise. The DMR gained about a full ISO value in noise that way. But it took two years to write the software, so I guess it is not too simple. Maybe in the future, who knows. Leica took their time for the AWB as well, but the delay ensured they got it right.

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Folks your just never going to get a high ISO with a Kodak CCD sensor. It does not exist. The best you will ever get with current technology is ISO 1600 and there is only one thing that is rated for that and that is the Phase One P30 plus back. I shoot MF with the P25 Plus back and my top end is ISO 800 the P30 plus top end is ISO 1600 . These are Kodak CCD sensors like the one in the DMR and M8 only with different micron sizes. Better said sam technology except for the P30 plus which uses Micro lenses and is a 6.8 cropped sensor. Mine is a 9 micron Full Frame sensor. Now I own these and even rated at ISO 1600 and ISO 800 for the P25 plus which is mine they still are not noise free at there max ISO's . The P25 Plus 9 micron is actually better than the M8 at ISO 640. What is not understood is there is nothing better in CCD with regards to noise. Hassy uses the same sensor as the Phase backs at there rated at ISO 800. Most of the high noise fix is not in the back and sensor but the software like C1 and the firmware. Until something radically changes you will not see this in CCD sensors. Remember ALL MF backs are CCD and none of them have AA filters. Leica followed the same path as the MF backs CCD and No AA filters to get the best quality out of the files as possible with there glass and unless Leica decides to CMOS and AA filters this won't change. There is a choice here and you can't get both in one camera or better yet one sensor. CCD has the ISO noise limit but the best file quality without a AA filter. You want High ISO's than you have to turn to CMOS sensors they run cooler and there AA filters help with the noise and you need to look at Nikon and Canon for it. Case in point when Nikon used CCD they had bad noise in the high ISO forget which model and everyone complained about it. They switched to CMOS and now we see ISO 6400 that are clean. But there files as nice as they are will not and are not as good as the Low ISO files of the M8. The M8 will still be a better file in the low ISO's than Nikon will kill it in the high ISO's.

 

You just can't bend more high ISO out of a CCD sensor in the present technology that exists. The only thing we can hope for is software to push it further , your asking the wrong company to do that . Also you can only ask so much of the algorithms. Seriously if this could be done more do you not think my 22k back would have higher ISO and this is made from Phase One the same folks that make Capture One. If Phase and Hassy can't do it that been around forever do you really think anyone else can. There are limitations on Kodak CCD sensors and not much can get around that fact. The reason you bought and love your M8's folks is because there is a CCD sensor in there and no AA filters. But asking for better noise is like fishing without any bait , yes someday we may get lucky.

 

I should add the fix for Leica is what. Faster glass and that is the rumor and my bet what you will see announced in a a few weeks . Faster glass.

Now my only bitch to the M8.2 is they should of had the electronic frame lines in it. My pet peeve

 

BTW hope everyone is well over here and i sit and wait with you to see what is announced also. Should be interesting to see what else is announced. I hope they hit the mark in the market

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Guest DuquesneG

The M8.2 reminds me of the M6TTL. Some people were really happy with the TTL flash, the 3rd meter diode and the reversal of the shutter dial rotation. Others couldn't have cared less, and those who used older bodies actually found the reversed shutter dial a pain.

It may be frustrating for anyone shooting an M8 alongside an M8.2 (or using the M8 as an emergency backup) given the framelines are calibrated differently. I wonder if Leica will offer to upgrade the M8.2 framelines to the M8 calibration for anyone who would rather not guess at cutting parts of the subject off <2m.

 

Best,

Gordon

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If the rumours about a Leica M8.2 are true, I think Leica is making a mistake by releasing such a camera because then the word “Timeless” camera has no meaning any more.....

We live in world of quick technical changes and Leica had a unique position in this market by giving the people a camera for life, instead of releasing a camera every year.....

By releasing a Leica M8.2 they actual admit there was something wrong with the M8 :-)

otherwise the M8.2 wouldn't be released......and then they are also joining the commercial race just like the other companies.

 

I hope that Leica gives the users the change to upgrade the camera if they want it, for example with a full frame sensor in the future.

So that the M8 becomes a desirable en respected camera again, instead of the failure camera....

Improve and fix the problem instead of leaving it unfixed!

 

When the M8 has reached a respectable quality level then I should release a M9 so that Leica the becomes No:1 brand in the digital area with a state of the art camera.

 

This is my personal opinion, by releasing a M8.2 the M8 owners feel them selves a little bit sad I think, because their camera's has lost it value...and this is just what Leica doesn't want,

Leica camera's are for life, aren't they? So the upgrade program is unique, and by this way they give the users back their trust in this company.

It's better can buy one expensive upgradable timeless camera instead of buying a new camera every year....

 

We will see!

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Folks your just never going to get a high ISO with a Kodak CCD sensor. It does not exist. The best you will ever get with current technology is ISO 1600 and there is only one thing that is rated for that and that is the Phase One P30 plus back. I shoot MF with the P25 Plus back and my top end is ISO 800 the P30 plus top end is ISO 1600 . These are Kodak CCD sensors like the one in the DMR and M8 only with different micron sizes. Better said sam technology except for the P30 plus which uses Micro lenses and is a 6.8 cropped sensor. Mine is a 9 micron Full Frame sensor. Now I own these and even rated at ISO 1600 and ISO 800 for the P25 plus which is mine they still are not noise free at there max ISO's . The P25 Plus 9 micron is actually better than the M8 at ISO 640. What is not understood is there is nothing better in CCD with regards to noise. Hassy uses the same sensor as the Phase backs at there rated at ISO 800. Most of the high noise fix is not in the back and sensor but the software like C1 and the firmware. Until something radically changes you will not see this in CCD sensors. Remember ALL MF backs are CCD and none of them have AA filters. Leica followed the same path as the MF backs CCD and No AA filters to get the best quality out of the files as possible with there glass and unless Leica decides to CMOS and AA filters this won't change. There is a choice here and you can't get both in one camera or better yet one sensor. CCD has the ISO noise limit but the best file quality without a AA filter. You want High ISO's than you have to turn to CMOS sensors they run cooler and there AA filters help with the noise and you need to look at Nikon and Canon for it. Case in point when Nikon used CCD they had bad noise in the high ISO forget which model and everyone complained about it. They switched to CMOS and now we see ISO 6400 that are clean. But there files as nice as they are will not and are not as good as the Low ISO files of the M8. The M8 will still be a better file in the low ISO's than Nikon will kill it in the high ISO's.

 

You just can't bend more high ISO out of a CCD sensor in the present technology that exists. The only thing we can hope for is software to push it further , your asking the wrong company to do that . Also you can only ask so much of the algorithms. Seriously if this could be done more do you not think my 22k back would have higher ISO and this is made from Phase One the same folks that make Capture One. If Phase and Hassy can't do it that been around forever do you really think anyone else can. There are limitations on Kodak CCD sensors and not much can get around that fact. The reason you bought and love your M8's folks is because there is a CCD sensor in there and no AA filters. But asking for better noise is like fishing without any bait , yes someday we may get lucky.

 

I should add the fix for Leica is what. Faster glass and that is the rumor and my bet what you will see announced in a a few weeks . Faster glass.

Now my only bitch to the M8.2 is they should of had the electronic frame lines in it. My pet peeve

 

BTW hope everyone is well over here and i sit and wait with you to see what is announced also. Should be interesting to see what else is announced. I hope they hit the mark in the market

 

A CCD-based camera is a good solution for studio

equipment, but the Ms are reportage cameras. Here the balance of features must be different. Superb image quality at ISO 160-320 isn't a good argument for a reporter. When the light is low the camera cannot help you: no stabilizers, poor image quality due to noise...

 

Faster lenses isn't the solution, because you also have faster lenses for alternative systems. On the other hand, the price of the fastest Leica lenses is very high. These lenses are big, and the aperture reduces the DoF. Therefore, aperture is not a neutral variable, for the picture and the pocket.

 

I suppose Kodak can make a CMOS without AA filter. Why not? Leica cannot design sensors, but Kodak and Dalsa will be challenged by japanese CMOS manufacturers soon, even in the MF market...

 

If Leica presents a new MF studio system, CCDs can be the best solution for it a this moment (or the only solution at hand). But, for the Ms, it is not the same, shouldn't be the same. We don't know what is doing Leica at this moment, but the later interview with Kaufmann leads to think of a "full frame" M based on Kodak CCDs, for 2009 or even 2010, and it worries me...

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Guest guy_mancuso
A CCD-based camera is a good solution for studio

equipment, but the Ms are reportage cameras. Here the balance of features must be different. Superb image quality at ISO 160-320 isn't a good argument for a reporter. When the light is low the camera cannot help you: no stabilizers, poor image quality due to noise...

 

Faster lenses isn't the solution, because you also have faster lenses for alternative systems. On the other hand, the price of the fastest Leica lenses is very high. These lenses are big, and the aperture reduces the DoF. Therefore, aperture is not a neutral variable, for the picture and the pocket.

 

I suppose Kodak can make a CMOS without AA filter. Why not? Leica cannot design sensors, but Kodak and Dalsa will be challenged by japanese CMOS manufacturers soon, even in the MF market...

 

If Leica presents a new MF studio system, CCDs can be the best solution for it a this moment (or the only solution at hand). But, for the Ms, it is not the same, shouldn't be the same. We don't know what is doing Leica at this moment, but the later interview with Kaufmann leads to think of a "full frame" M based on Kodak CCDs, for 2009 or even 2010, and it worries me...

 

You make a excellent point but let me ask this question DID leica ever say they were making a reportage camera when the announced the M8. We all wanted it to be one but reality is it is not and Leica went right after producing a high end image machine and chose a Kodak CCD with no AA filter than cut back the amount of IR for what. For image quality and that was leica's bottom line build the best image machine they can, trust me they will admit to it in a heart beat. But coming from a leica reportage camp as many have it was not specifically designed for it with regards to low light and ISO's.

 

It's what we wanted and what we got is still the best image machine besides MF in the lower ISO's.

 

But leica never said we are building a photo journalism camera. we assumed that

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You make a excellent point but let me ask this question DID leica ever say they were making a reportage camera when the announced the M8. We all wanted it to be one but reality is it is not and Leica went right after producing a high end image machine and chose a Kodak CCD with no AA filter than cut back the amount of IR for what. For image quality and that was leica's bottom line build the best image machine they can, trust me they will admit to it in a heart beat. But coming from a leica reportage camp as many have it was not specifically designed for it with regards to low light and ISO's.

 

It's what we wanted and what we got is still the best image machine besides MF in the lower ISO's.

 

But leica never said we are building a photo journalism camera. we assumed that

 

Sorry,

But I do recall in last years Leica brochure . Listing the M8 as a reportage camera.

 

PeterP

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Leica does not sell stuff for photo journalists but for people buying it actually i.e. doctors, lawyers, engineers and the like. Will they buy the M8-2? I guess so for lack of competition in Japan or elsewhere. But will they buy an MF R10? My answer is no AFAIC but is is another story.

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