Jamie Roberts Posted September 5, 2008 Share #181 Posted September 5, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) You are not missing anything, Wilson. The new camera is the silhouette in the intro flash. By the time you see the full moon, you'll know what it is. Well, as long as it isn't the 50d, then. But it better focus properly, is all I can say, and I'm serious about that Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 Hi Jamie Roberts, Take a look here M8.2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
chris_tribble Posted September 5, 2008 Share #182 Posted September 5, 2008 Looks like a typical blobby Canon DSLR to me... Mark - back on the topic of the M8.2 (if it happens!). Any idea which of the features look feasible for upgrade rather than new model implementation? Shutter and glass we know about, and we think that SDHC is through firmware - but what about: framelines shutter re-cock delay + others. Interested to hear your expert opinion. Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 5, 2008 Share #183 Posted September 5, 2008 Frameline replacement has been a Leica service for a long time now. I would be highly surprised if that were not offered as an upgrade. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted September 5, 2008 Share #184 Posted September 5, 2008 Looks like a typical blobby Canon DSLR to me... .....and I thought I was the only fossil who liked squared off metal body SLR's like the various Contaxes I had (139, RTS2 and RX). I was not even enamoured of the "streamling" on my R8, preferring the look of the earlier models. I sold my R8 when I saw the size of the DMR, which made it look even bigger and blobbier. - waits for descent of wrath from Andy. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted September 5, 2008 Share #185 Posted September 5, 2008 Frameline replacement has been a Leica service for a long time now. I would be highly surprised if that were not offered as an upgrade. No doubt. But the question is, will the frameline be changed as part of an other upgrade or as a stand alone ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted September 5, 2008 Share #186 Posted September 5, 2008 Trying to think through the economics of this (at the same time as marking a particularly tedious re-submitted undergraduate assignment - popping back to the list provides some relief...) I paid £2,999 for each of my M8s. Got the first one in Jan 2007 and the second one in April 07 - which was then stolen earlier this year, so the I now have a fresh body #2 that runs out of warranty around April 2010. I've not fully earned back the value of the investment, but it's pretty close - another job this summer should see me in profit (photography is about 20% of my income). If I upgrade one of the bodies getting framelines / shutter / shutter-recock sorted AND in the process get a 12 month warranty extension, that doesn't seem too bad a deal to me, so long as the cost of the upgrade isn't much more than 50% of the purchase price. For between £1000 and £1500 I'd then have a likely more reliable body that meets my needs much more closely than the original M8 + an extended warranty. I'd then wait until the warranty runs out on the second body (April 2010 and get that one upgraded to whatever spec's available at that time (in a new financial year too so I write down some of the cost). Strikes me as being fair enough... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 5, 2008 Share #187 Posted September 5, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Replacing the masks is relatively simple; take off the top, two screws to release the frame holding them, swap them over, adjust. Much less work than replacing the shutter or even the glass, so while I don't expect it to be cheap (what is in the world of Leica?) I expect it will be offered as a menu item. You could argue the existing framelines are a flaw in the design; someone make the incorrect decision to use 0.7m as the reference point but I don't think it's reasonable to claim it's a warranty issue. The old frames are working as designed, even if that design is incorrect. I expect the new charger will be compatible as will the improved-durability top plate and vulcanite cover, if you want to pay for them. The delayed shutter wind should be just firmware. The M16 processor knows where the shutter release button is and controls both the shutter and wind-on actions. Just a matter of an option set in the main menu and logic in the processor firmware to determine when the motor wind sequence is to be started. Definitely not Rocket-Science! The whole snap-shot mode thing looks to be just a convenient way of using the shutter dial position vacated by the 1/8000 speed and I expect it's just firmware but will only be available if the camera knows it has the new shutter installed. The same goes with the info button suggestions, I wonder if they will include "Did you take the lens cap off?" for people like Eric Clapton... We don't know the detail of course, but it looks like a modest update based around a handful of new components with some firmware to tie it together. I doube the fundamentals - sensor, viewfinder, rangefinder, DSP have changed, so as Jamie mentions above, green streaks may still be with us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted September 5, 2008 Share #188 Posted September 5, 2008 Mark - very helpful (assuming that the rumour matches the reality!). Thanks! If we've got the framelines option AND the quieter shutter option + shutter release changes, I'm likely to be contacting my dealer to book a slot. The crystal-glass thing is a non-issue for me, but these other changes will enhance the tool for my purposes. I'm also lucky that I don't seem to have suffered green-blob problems with either body... Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 5, 2008 Share #189 Posted September 5, 2008 I was referring to the streaks you get when you have a bright light at the frame edge, Leica said they couldn't fix it in firmware. If the M8 is an available light camera, there are often high contrast situations, bright lights in the frame which cause unwanted filter reflections and can cause this green streaking. I'm sure Leica know what the problem is but are not saying. I'd like a better quality shutter release... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 5, 2008 Share #190 Posted September 5, 2008 Strange thing is, Mark, it seems to be camera-specific. I have not been able to induce the green streak on either of my bodies, and have never seen it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 5, 2008 Share #191 Posted September 5, 2008 Interesting, I can induce it at will on all three of mine... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted September 5, 2008 Share #192 Posted September 5, 2008 Strange thing is, Mark, it seems to be camera-specific. I have not been able to induce the green streak on either of my bodies, and have never seen it. I just did, for the first time: in the Kalahari! Jaap, watch out for that African sun Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 5, 2008 Share #193 Posted September 5, 2008 I just did, for the first time: in the Kalahari! Jaap, watch out for that African sun They have been out there already:) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted September 5, 2008 Share #194 Posted September 5, 2008 I feel I have to be very careful how I phrase my questions here these days - I know there are some people who've taken serious exception to my tone - but without wanting to ruffle any feathers, I really want to know how attractive people think this upgraded camera is going to be to new Leica M8(.2) buyers? As far as I can see, the jubilation seems to be confined to M8 owners expressing their relief that their M8 is not devalued by the new camera. (Please note: I'm careful not to use the phrase 'rendered obsolete' because I'm well aware that M8s in use now will continue to take great pictures for their happy owners for many years to come). While no-one wants built-in obsolescence or frenetic product updates, I honestly can't see how anyone who has Leica's best-interests at heart, rather than their own, would think that an announcement which amounts to: 'hardly any progress whatsoever for the last two years' is good news. Please ignore my question if you think I'm trolling - I'm not interested in insults. Just interested in what I'm going to buy when the RD1s stops working. Mani Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted September 5, 2008 Share #195 Posted September 5, 2008 Mani, I think the good news is that the upgrades they're adding is, for a large part, the result of user (that is us here amongst others) feedback. The user community gave Leica a list of wishes that we'd like to see changed in the M8 and they're implementing a lot of them. It feels good to be able to influence the development of the toos we use. That we, hopefully, can have our older M8s modified to include these changes is also good news. I'll most likely have some of the modifications done to my own M8, haven't decided on which yet. Yes, a lot would have wanted to see the camera get a major workover and morf into an M9. I'm not sure if I'm there quite yet. Leica doesn't develop thair own sensors and a new camera would have to be built around a new, improved chip. The angle of incidence of light hitting the far corners of the chip being the biggest technological challenge. Unless Kodak, Sony, Canon, Nikon, Matsusita or Acme Imaging Chips Inc. can solve this it dosen't make sence (at lest not to me) to cram more pixels onto the current CCD just to be able to call it a new camera. Cheers, - Carl Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted September 5, 2008 Share #196 Posted September 5, 2008 Mani - I can also see your point, but there's also the issue that the M series are going to remain relatively low-volume, specialised tools. They'll certainly never have the stellar sales of the pro-sumer DSLRs, or even the Pro / Press DSLRs like the 1D mk2/mk3. The nearest comparison sales-wise maybe with the 1DS series - or even digital medium format where working professionals or well-heeled amateurs are willing to invest in something that does a specific job for them. I see myself as a bit of an anomoly as I'm neither a full-time professional nor a well-heeled anything (!). However, I have been willing to invest in the M8 because for the kind of documentary work it has most of the features I need (except for quietness - which was the big disappointment). What I think has to happen with the M8.2 is that Leica attracts in a bunch of people who had been holding off while the problems of the M8.1 were being sorted out. IF Leica gets it right and we have a new incarnation with framelines in the right place, a shutter in the Leica tradition and no electronic failure problems (hey - even the charger's been improved) then I think that these people will buy. When you think how bumpy the entry was (with the IR scandal and the re-call) it's a miracle that so many have been sold. I see the combination of the new lenses in the Leica stable + M8.2 as really having a chance of expanding the user base. And I'm so pleased that the investment that we early adopters have made hasn't been ignored and we're not left out in the cold. Call me a cup's half full sort of person, but that's the way I hope it goes. Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShyTot Posted September 5, 2008 Share #197 Posted September 5, 2008 I feel I have to be very careful how I phrase my questions here these days - While no-one wants built-in obsolescence or frenetic product updates, I honestly can't see how anyone who has Leica's best-interests at heart, rather than their own, would think that an announcement which amounts to: 'hardly any progress whatsoever for the last two years' is good news. Please ignore my question if you think I'm trolling - I'm not interested in insults. Just interested in what I'm going to buy when the RD1s stops working. Mani 'hardly any progress whatsoever for the last two years' - I think great strides have been made. We've come from a product that seemed unfit for purpose and unstable and not capable of producing colours correctly, to one that is absolutely the class leader and capable of great results. We all want FF to be available, no IR filters, but that must be for another time. Further, can I respectfully suggest that it's much too early to come to the conclusion as whilst we obviously have the specs, we don't have the detail from Leica of changes made to improve the product, nor what else they've been doing for the last two years. Reading the specs of a new BMW doesn't tell you what the driving experience is like, driving it does. Remember this post when Leica have rolled out the product, its modifications, its accessories etc and return and confirm your change of mind. I'm confident you'll have reason to. Enjoy the guesswork, but allow Leica their day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted September 5, 2008 Share #198 Posted September 5, 2008 Thanks guys for taking the time to answer. I hasten to add that more megapixels and particularly more bells-and-whistles are of no interest to me, at all. But even so, at this stage I'm still wondering who's going to be excited about this? I seriously think it's a problem because, other than the discounts that have been offered over the last year or six months, I can't see how this rate of development is sustainable in a digital context, to maintain M8 sales. (Particularly in view of the world economic outlook - but let's not get sidetracked on that discussion). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 5, 2008 Share #199 Posted September 5, 2008 I feel I have to be very careful how I phrase my questions here these days - I know there are some people who've taken serious exception to my tone - but without wanting to ruffle any feathers, I really want to know how attractive people think this upgraded camera is going to be to new Leica M8(.2) buyers? As far as I can see, the jubilation seems to be confined to M8 owners expressing their relief that their M8 is not devalued by the new camera. (Please note: I'm careful not to use the phrase 'rendered obsolete' because I'm well aware that M8s in use now will continue to take great pictures for their happy owners for many years to come). While no-one wants built-in obsolescence or frenetic product updates, I honestly can't see how anyone who has Leica's best-interests at heart, rather than their own, would think that an announcement which amounts to: 'hardly any progress whatsoever for the last two years' is good news. Please ignore my question if you think I'm trolling - I'm not interested in insults. Just interested in what I'm going to buy when the RD1s stops working. Mani If you don't know just keep it going. I'm a bit surprised at you disappointment, as you seem to be happy with your RD1, which is miles behind the M8 in terms of progress. And before I get flamed, a camera capable of excellent images and dearly loved by its owners, albeit not by me, reason why I never bought it. And there it stopped for me. I never saw any reason to go onto RD1 forums and try to point out to RD1 users that they were using a substandard product. "I am only posting this with the best interests of Epson in mind...." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted September 5, 2008 Share #200 Posted September 5, 2008 I think great strides have been made. What would those be then? ..apart from a debugged firmware upgrade I haven't seen anything. mine still sounds like a cannon going off;) If the M8.2 spec is what has been mentioned then that's pretty underwhelming for 2 years work IMO. Thats why there must be something else coming on the M mount front because the M8.2 spec will not in my opinion attract additional new buyers. In a couple of weeks we'll know more andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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