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biglouis

So why are so many people selling their M8s?

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Brent ....

 

I forgot to mention that lenses indeed are amongst the "mission critical factors" of producing a good image, and Leica lenses obviously have always had an edge in the wet-photography process, they are superior to most other lenses in terms of technical image quality within 24x36 format. Digitally however the lens is important still but doesn't have the same values as within film, it helps, but isn't the justifier anymore. In camera controlled imaging engines are, and this is where leica currently lacks compared to other brands. I know I'm going to get branded for this but give Nikon Leica glass on their current new series, or give leica the Nikon SW on their next version of the M8 .... both would make quite a difference within the current day imaging competition...

 

Leica started from a long way back when it comes to imaging software - I don't think they learned much from the Imacon/Phase One experiences and only now realise that imaging software IP is at least as important as lens design IP in the digital world.

 

Are you talking only about in-camera RAW? Most here accept that, unfortunately, M8 in-camera JPEGs have only limited use.

 

It would certainly be interesting to think of Leica lenses on a Nikon and an M9 with a Nikon imaging engine. A much more interesting alliance to me than another dreary line-up of rebadged Panasonics.

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Alas mark, I know not much about in-camera processing software, but in camera RAW processing is just a part of the package one gets I think. Its the phase prior to RAW development which makes the difference. How can Nikon achieve such good low-light photography methodology on their D3 and D700 which is substantially better than on their D80, it's a software thing,processing speed, quality of coding I haven't a clue but the results are their. It's not as if they have improved their lenses or so, but their is definitely an improvement of the image quality at similar ISO values ... this has something to with programming, no doubt about it ... far from perfect but a substantial enough improvement to show that in-camera processing has reached a very important level at the current stage of photography and the results thereof. Obviously this takes lots of $ to develop, and is a good investment for the future. More so that images can be software controlled to compete with a certain lens, they do this now already with film, they will be able to do this with lenses to within the very near future.

 

As for higher sensor pixel counts, everybody knows this is decremental to the quality of the final image, so do the manufacturers but they must have a PLAN B in kind in order to justify this totally unnecessary increase of pixel counts.... like I said a Plan B nikon has achieved the first step by developing a truly nice camera, useable in all/most lighting situations, this precess will continue, canon will overrule nikon etc. etc.. I just hope leica can keep up with this...

 

hope this makes somewhat sense (english is not my mother-tongue)

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the answer is easy: thousands and thousands of M8s have been sold, now

there are the first s/h on the market. Normal business, do I care ? No, I won´t

sell mine............

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Just did a quick check on eBay , 3 are for sale by private individuals , the rest are are dealers selling new or demo . Occasionally you'll find one on Craigslist.

Hardly a reason to worry or even justify this thread .

 

PeterP

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Because M9 is coming out soon. That is why people are selling their M8.

 

 

Or M8 is Sxxxxt! that is why!

 

 

BUT I love My m8. I do`nt know why people are selling it!

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Isabelle--I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that the new Nikons have the best high ISO image quality currently available. But to hear people talk about this one could get the impression that half of all shooting now is being done by candle light. Sure, if you are shooting indoor sports events (Olympics, for example), you'd be foolish not to have the D3 or MkIII, but that's never been the pervue of the Leica M anyway. I do 95% of my shooting at ISO 160 & 320, and I think that's true for a lot of M8 photographers. For the work I do, I'm delighted with what the M8 produces and plan to stick with it until a successor is introduced.

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I do 95% of my shooting at ISO 160 & 320, and I think that's true for a lot of M8 photographers. For the work I do, I'm delighted with what the M8 produces and plan to stick with it until a successor is introduced.

 

I actually wish there was a way to shoot at lower than 160 ISO. Somewhere in the 25-50 range. (I really miss my Panatomic-x/Kodachrome days)

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Current for-sale cameras (I picked the Canon 1D MkII to compare to the M8 in that they were about the same price 2 years ago, have the same crop factor, and are aging roughly equally. The Canon has had a replacement (Mkiii) but the replacement has had some notable problems so many pros held onto their Mkii's):

 

Ebay - 9 M8's, 12 Canon1D MkII

 

KEH - 4M8's, 4 Canon 1Dii

 

Doesn't seem like "so many" M8's are for sale to me. About on par.

 

BTW the M8s started out about $500 more than a 1Dii new in '06 - now they are generally worth $1000 more used.

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I do 95% of my shooting at ISO 160 & 320, and I think that's true for a lot of M8 photographers.

 

Agreed, but I'd take that a step further and say that it's probably true for most photographers, not just the M8 slingers. Stuff tends to look better in the light.

 

But having said that ... and trying carefully not to contradict myself ... I'd have to add that high-ISO capability can be really handy. Currently it comes at a cost: greater weight and bulk. But if the next digital M is up to speed ISO wise, it'll be a stunner.

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Current for-sale cameras (I picked the Canon 1D MkII to compare to the M8 in that they were about the same price 2 years ago, have the same crop factor, and are aging roughly equally. The Canon has had a replacement (Mkiii) but the replacement has had some notable problems so many pros held onto their Mkii's):

 

Ebay - 9 M8's, 12 Canon1D MkII

 

KEH - 4M8's, 4 Canon 1Dii

 

Doesn't seem like "so many" M8's are for sale to me. About on par.

 

BTW the M8s started out about $500 more than a 1Dii new in '06 - now they are generally worth $1000 more used.

 

By some estimates, there are 20000 M*s out there. Anyone care to hazard a guess how many of these Canons were sold?

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At first I was going to pass on this topic, but something very profound struck me...

 

There is a gross misconception that an SLR is no good for street / documentary photography. While the M is a fantastic tool for street documentary, it is not the most widely used in the genre in a pro sense.

 

Most of the top pros I know that shoot this genre, and some of them are legendary, don't use the M8. A lot of them use the 5D and now some are already raving about the D700. Of course there is that guy using the Oly C2020 too...

 

The reason for this is that it is the photographer's ability to either blend in or be a part of it all that makes or breaks this kind of shot, not so much the camera. So while the M is a nice addition to the documentary / street shooter's arsenal, it is not the be-all, end-all of that genre...especially the odd sounding M8.

 

What I am finding is that in low light, the D700 with a 28/2, 35/2 or 50 1.2 is just blowing the doors off of the M8 when it comes to this genre. It is not as big as the amateurs on here would have you believe and it is fairly easy to keep it low key.

 

The D700 is even easy to keep on the down low in the brighter light situations than you might think...again, photographer's habits.

 

My M6 and a single 28mm F/2 were flawless on Mt. Rainier last month, entirely dependable.

My D700 and a single 28mm F/2 were flawless in the harsh weather of the Colorado high country last week, entirely dependable.

 

My M8 and a single 28mm F/2 have been partially dependable in average shooting conditions, kind of unnerving at times to say the least.

 

And the 7th and most recent comment about the easy to spot reflective surface of the IR filters: "I saw the glint off of your filter from across the room and wondered why you have a warming filter on in a room full of tungsten light? said a lady about 80 feet away in a dimly lit restaurant during a magazine piece on a chef.

 

Out of ten camera bodies, the M8 is the only one I continue to struggle with holding onto.

It does produce some fine images and it is the only game in town for digital R/F, but make no mistake, truly great documentary and street shooters are doing just fine without it and will continue to do so...

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Like I mentioned Steve, important for some, not for others ....

 

Actually you said that it wasn't important for most of the users. From conversation with people who use Ms I don't believe that to be the case. Anecdotal evidence I agree, but the viewfinder has been one of the common reasons people have given for using Ms.

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What's so great about versatility? Seriously, if your work does not require the latest superwide/macro/long tele glass or super-high iso, an M8 and ONE lens (or a few) can do a lot.

 

Versatility for me means for example that I choose the f-stop I want for the DOF Iwant and not let the amount of light dictate the DOF in the image.

I also really like the M8 but I would ly if I said I wouldnt wish for better high ISO.

Tom

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Thanks, Adan, for putting some numbers on this..

 

"Ebay - 9 M8's, 12 Canon1D MkII

KEH - 4M8's, 4 Canon 1Dii"

 

Whatever others think of your numbers - they didn't provide any!

 

Until your contribution this was another thread where someone makes an allegation, however well intentioned, with no numbers.. and then a rabid discussion ensues.

 

It's a bit like those lazy journalists who think if they say, "apparently" or "allegedly" they don't need to check or even provide any facts.

 

Regards,

Mark

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Hi Guys,

 

I seem to have missed this discussion for some time now. So here's my two cents worth. Leica has always been the ultimate in terms of quality, with the lenses being legendary. Over the years though, digital photography for its speed and ease of use, has taken over the majority of the market. Leica was slow to follow through on this and many people who had film M's sold them off and moved to other brands.

 

When Leica introduced the M8 (and Epson the RD1 a couple of months earlier), it caused a massive stir in the photo world. People used to the film M's switched back to Leica and have been happy pretty much along the way.

 

People who only knew of Leica and the legendary quality also thought "wow I have to have one of those". Working with an M camera (or any rangefinder), requires a complete mind set change. Your style of photography changes - no zooms, no autofocus, no bells and whistles etc. Many of the people who went out and impulse bought an M8 are now discovering that the shooting style does not suit them. In addition to this, they have now made the discovery that the M8 is a poor choice for some types of photography. So now they have made the sad realization that they have made a mistake (a rather costly one too), and need to sell off the M8 to go back to one of the other systems.

 

I think its probably pretty safe to say that people who are now selling off their M8's are people who probably started out in the digital age (or in the late film era when camera's had pretty much all built in). For us middle aged and older lot, we grew up with film, manual focus, light meters, medium format, film backs etc. So it was like moving back to familiar territory. Plus it has forced one again to think about the image making process, and concentrate on composition again. It has brought the fun back into photography.

 

Yes the M8 is not perfect, and does not have all the luxuries built in, but when you use it within it's photographic capability, it produces an image that rivals any other manufacturer.

 

Andreas

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It has brought the fun back into photography.

 

Quote of the day (year).

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At first I was going to pass on this topic, but something very profound struck me...

 

There is a gross misconception that an SLR is no good for street / documentary photography. While the M is a fantastic tool for street documentary, it is not the most widely used in the genre in a pro sense.

 

 

I don't think there are very many people who would argue that an SLR is "no good for street/documentary photography." But a lot of us would argue that a digital rangefinder like the M8 is certainly a lot more comfortable to carry around all day and a good deal less conspicuous than an SLR. It stands to reason that most street documentary work is done with SLRs because pros have never used Leica M systems nearly as much as SLRs due to cost and what some would consider redundancy (why have another 35mm system?). But in many years of being a professional photographer I don't remember ever encountering another pro who didn't have at least some degree of lust for a Leica M system. If one could buy an M8 and a couple of lenses for $1,500, you'd probably never see anyone using an SLR for street/documentary photography again.

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"It has brought the fun back into photography."

 

Quote of the day (year).

 

Absolutely!

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after the breakdown of my M8 in Greenland I thought of selling it again...

started looking at a high quality compact camera that could replace it and I found none...

 

Just try to work with hyperfocal focussing with any modern compact...it can't be done

Try to control the AF and speeds/aperture...it's shit, and usually back to Auto-everything after powerdown

Try to get a good control over depth of field...can't be done, everything is sharp anyway

 

I had a caplio GX100 once, which came close in control but had a worthless image and build quality (returned it twice in 6 months), it was one of the objects I traded for the M8

 

All above can be done with a DSLR and good prime, but that is larger and less stealth.

 

Yes the M8 has some weird stuff and I just hate the shuttersound being used to an M6, and above 320 (maybe 640) the images become less usable. Iso 2500 should not be there at all

 

But it is not going for long. I hope for a sensor update at the kina...which I will then do in 1 or 2 years

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By some estimates, there are 20000 M*s out there. Anyone care to hazard a guess how many of these Canons were sold?

 

Don't know how many Canon pro cameras have been sold , but Canon released this stat today.

 

"Canon has announced the shipment of its 100 millionth digital compact camera. It plans to launch a special color variation compact camera to mark the occasion. Beginning with the PowerShot 600 in 1996, Canon claims to have delivered a total of 106 models around the world "

 

PeterP

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