Early adopters of the M8...

[albertwang]

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Hi Leicafolks,

 

After careful pondering I am seriously now considering saving up for the M8 (which is going to be the biggest purchase in my lifetime) to get. However, like most electronic equipment, I have never been an early adopter of any sort of electronic equipment. After seeing teething problems with examples such as the PSP, Xbox 360, Leica R8, and Apple MacBook Pro, I have avoided being the first one on the block. I don't even plan to pre-order the M8 yet.

 

If you are an early adopter, apart from simply having the Leica M8 in your hand earlier than anyone else, would you be concerned about any potential electronic problems that could crop up?

 

Thanks!

AW

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[fotografr]

Normally, I'd be very cautious about getting one of the first versions. In this case, however, I believe Leica will have extensively tested and refined this camera and firmware before the release. I'm staying on the list to get one as soon as possible. There is a lot riding on the M8 and they know it.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Albert i have bought way to many i have it first gear. DMR, 1ds, 1dsMKII, 1dMKII, Mac Pro, Mac book Pro. Now i have been lucky in some area's and screwed in others. The DMR was a winner out of the gate, still is. the M8 i believe will be also and reason is simple . Leica cares. I understand totally this concern but it has a warranty and leica has proved awesome on my DMR and the knob issue . i had mine back within the week with a new knob , cleaned and adjusted DMR ready to shoot. I have a lot of faith in this company , given i spent many dollars here, i better. the only issue that i see is maybe more firmware upgrades which is always normal to some degree. personally i would be on the waiting list if i was you, by the time you get yours there will be enough out there and any issues will come to surface if any. To me this one like the DMR is a no brainer, just buy it. I am still in debate but only because of money spent on completely switching to Mac. But i am second on a list, so need to decide

[albertwang]

That's true... this year could be the last year I shoot my M6 as extensively in my annual NYC trip. It hasn't failed me yet!

 

I so love the M6 that has been a good friend. Perhaps the M8 can be seen as the new sibling for my camera.

[mhoutman]

Albert, in fact I am the bit the same as you but it all has to do with risc management.

 

I use Apple since 1985 and generally speaking I am very happy with the quality. my next purchase will be the Leopard Powerbook and currently applaud for all beta testing with the MacBook (Pro)

 

Yes, incidentally products have been released which should have not...but frankly speaking I have confidence in Leica's record.

 

that said, did I tell you about my previous BMW 5-series with all it's iDrive and software problems

[adan]

"When you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want "the rest of your life" to start as soon as possible." Harry (Billy Crystal) in "When Harry Met Sally"

 

I'd rather get an M8, and pix from it, in Nov. - and have it turn up a bug in Dec. - than not have ANY M8 pix until March.

 

If I were an early adopter, I'd have had an M8 in July. I'm a "just in time" adopter.

[imported_clicker]

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I understand how you feel. When I bought my M7 a couple of years ago, it was my first - but well proven - Leica. But been in the "family" so to speak, for awhike now, I've gained enough faith in the company to put my money down for an M8.

 

Hopefully. I'll see it by the end of November or earlt December.

[ptomsu]

Hi Leicafolks,

 

After careful pondering I am seriously now considering saving up for the M8 (which is going to be the biggest purchase in my lifetime) to get. However, like most electronic equipment, I have never been an early adopter of any sort of electronic equipment. After seeing teething problems with examples such as the PSP, Xbox 360, Leica R8, and Apple MacBook Pro, I have avoided being the first one on the block. I don't even plan to pre-order the M8 yet.

 

If you are an early adopter, apart from simply having the Leica M8 in your hand earlier than anyone else, would you be concerned about any potential electronic problems that could crop up?

 

Thanks!

AW

 

I would never ever be one of the first buying such a product, not from Leica and not from any other like C or N or others.

 

You can expect that there is a continuous improvement to final state of the art quality over the first few hundred pieces. No way to avoid that! Not even for Leica and not even for any money they ask for.

 

So going to buy one after 6 months or 1 year is clearly a far saver decision.

 

Peter

[sean_reid]

Hi Albert,

 

To answer your question: No, I personally am not worried about being an early adopter of the M8. The camera has been extensively tested and Leica is serious about supporting it.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jpmay]

I feel there are TWO issues here:

 

(1) bugs in new releases of electronics

 

(2) the endlessly decreasing cost of new electronics (ultimately simply due to Moore's law)

 

 

IMO, issue (1) used to be a problem. The first batch of video recorders, the first batch of each apple laptop (a few years ago), and the first batch of self-closing doors from Lexus ... had problems.

 

It was well worth waiting a few months until "release two" came out with a few fixes. problems, bugs as it were, were the norm on "new releases" of Clever Stuff.

 

However, IMO, this is simply not true any more. The first batch of HD DVD players that come out will be fine, and the first batch of new apple laptops are now fine, and so on.

 

I actually think issue (1) is now HISTORY .. it's just something oldsters reminisce about. It is a non-issue these days. Sure, there might be some firmware adjustements or something, but Asia is now so incredible at making Electronic Stuff that the first batch pumps out working fine.

 

 

However, issue (2) is (certainly) still and will remain a real issue. Whetever you are paying for in an M8 body (or any digital camera .. not the lens) a lot of the M* you are paying for is "Electronic Stuff." There is no doubt that in a year or 18 months, that Stuff will be 2x as good (at the same price) or 0.5x as expensive (for the same amazement factor).

 

So, there is utterly no questin whatsoever that the M8 released in a year or two will be better and cheaper. But that's how it's been with computers for all our lives ... every single time you buy a new laptop, SURE, you could JUST WAIT 6 months for a better/cheaper one. That is simply a lock-solid given. The same is true exactly of digital cam bodies. (The electronic aspect anyway.)

 

(Hell, I picked up a couple new apple laptops like 2-3 months ago, and just haven't had a chance to get them rolling, so I have WASTED 1/4 of their "leading life" just sitting in a box under the pinball machine!)

 

 

So yeah --- issue (ONE) is a non-issue. it's history.

 

Issue (TWO) is still and will remain an issue! Wait a year and get the same one cheaper or a better one for the same price...

 

 

JPM

[zanydave]

I'm going to wait a while. Too many many products being released unfinished in this digital age.

 

Dave

[LADP]

I feel there are TWO issues here:

 

(1) bugs in new releases of electronics

 

(2) the endlessly decreasing cost of new electronics (ultimately simply due to Moore's law)

 

 

IMO, issue (1) used to be a problem. The first batch of video recorders, the first batch of each apple laptop (a few years ago), and the first batch of self-closing doors from Lexus ... had problems.

 

It was well worth waiting a few months until "release two" came out with a few fixes. problems, bugs as it were, were the norm on "new releases" of Clever Stuff.

 

However, IMO, this is simply not true any more. The first batch of HD DVD players that come out will be fine, and the first batch of new apple laptops are now fine, and so on.

 

I actually think issue (1) is now HISTORY .. it's just something oldsters reminisce about. It is a non-issue these days. Sure, there might be some firmware adjustements or something, but Asia is now so incredible at making Electronic Stuff that the first batch pumps out working fine.

 

So yeah --- issue (ONE) is a non-issue. it's history.

 

Issue (TWO) is still and will remain an issue! Wait a year and get the same one cheaper or a better one for the same price...

 

I'm afraid I quite firmly (though respectfully) disagree with your assessment of this issue being "HISTORY."

 

Companies that manufacture electronic products are always under pressure to release products in the market and to avoid delaying, lest the competition and also the pace of technology render the product outdated or obsolete.

 

No company can possibly test a given 1st generation electronic product as fully as it will be tested in the first several months out in the market by early adopters. That's just a plain fact. Bugs will always be discovered by end users that the Corporate testers never saw, because they never envisioned using the product in all the myriad ways that end users will.

 

As for your example of first generation Apple laptops now being fine, is also inaccurate. There have been numerous bugs found with the recent Macbook Pro and Macbook line of laptops. Just check out the MacFixIt - Troubleshooting Solutions for the Macintosh to see what I mean.

 

Just to be clear, I am an Apple user, and I love their products, but I am not an early adopter of anything anymore. Now having said that, I do believe the M8 will be a pretty darned good 1st generation camera. Leica is not an electronic manufacturing company, nor do they operate at all like typical electronic manufacturers do. I would buy a 1st generation M8, but I'm spending too much money in other areas of photography for the time being.

[adan]

I guess my question for those of you NOT adopting the M8 as quickly as possible is - what will you shoot with in the meantime?

 

Some shrieking AF DSLR?

 

A P&S??

 

Leica M and film???

 

My photography has practically creaked to a stand-still waiting for the M8.

 

I've pretty much exhausted the possibilities of the Sony R-1 - fine in daylight, but I'm ready to get back to lenses f/2 and faster, rather than f/2.8-4.5. And real manual focusing. And a compact body....etc, etc.

 

I have no interest in spending another dime on film, chemicals, processing - or any more minutes out my life driving to the lab or scanning.

 

I have even less interest (yes, less than zero) in buying an SLR and a set of lenses that I know I'll just have to dump the minute I CAN get an M8 (that's why I got the R-1 in the first place - cheapest possible 10Mpixel/largish sensor available, as a stop-gap).

 

I'm putting off every photo project I'm working on until I can do it with digital AND Leica lenses AND manual focusing AND f/2. Why shoot compromised pictures when I can do it right in a month or two?

 

And why shoot compromised pictures FOR 6-12 MONTHS when I can do it right in a month or two??!

[marknorton]

So going to buy one after 6 months or 1 year is clearly a far saver decision.

 

Peter, it may be a safer decision but it's also the more boring one. The order backlog for this camera will be growing by the day and the danger of waiting is that instead of being able to wait 6 - 12 months, you will have to.

[wattsy]

I'm not sure what bugs people are worrying about. Software ones can be dealt with via firmware updates and hardware issues will no doubt be dealt with by the local Leica service centre. Let's face it, Leica do not have a great recent history of making significant hardware changes to fix 'issues' - the M7 design still suffers from DX code problems and everyone hates the 'flashing dot' feature of the M7 - so anyone expecting the M8 6 months down the line to be any different (firmware excepted) from the M8 sold in November/December are likely to be a bit disappointed.

[georg]

Quality remains a huge issue. Most things have to become cheaper and cheaper, production gets outsourced, development time gets shorter...

 

Luckily some companies are left that want to improve their products (even if production becomes more expensive) instead of just thinking about their shareholder value - one of them is Leica.

The electronic-issue with the R8 was very special - they needed new suppliers because of new technology and the problem mostly occured after the winder was installed over 2 years after the introduction of the R8...

 

The M8 seems slightly different, they have more experience with most of the suppliers, they used know-how of the DMR etc.

The Firmware will be improved but the hardware will meet Leica-standards - if not, they will repair it for free after 1 week, 1 year or 10 years (like with the R8)!

In 10 years Canon has already forgotten about their plastic 5D and just says "buy a new one" (which has 50Mpixels but even more plastic because production costs had to be reduced by 50%).

 

At this level (pixel pitch...) optical/mechanical quality is too important to increase image-quality (especially resolution) just with cheap electronics. A 1000$ Canon-DSLR with zoom doesn't get you the same quality even if you buy it in 10 years with a 50Mpixel-sensor - the rest of the system simply can't hold this quality.

 

The MarkII was introduced 2 years ago, a good 5Mpixel-compact-camera from 2004 can make better pictures than a 2006 10Mpixel-camera with higher pixel pitch...

Especially the professional market doesn't need a new camera every year anymore...

 

There will be a M9 probably in 4 years with a ~ 20Mpixel 36mm x 24mm sensor - but still you can make really good pictures with your M8. I wanted to wait for the M9 - but shooting another 4 years (~1000€) slides which are extremly hard to print in full quality instead of just having fun with the M8 NOW and selling it later!?

Ok, it hurts me too thinking about selling it for <2000€ - but shooting at least 4 years with it is absolutly worth it fo me.