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Should Leica Abandon The M8?

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perhaps leica should consider abandoning it's current service model" first. keep the m8, the digital cl (or whatever other cameras we have dreamt up in our heads) and develop a service process can support the gear in a timely fashion.

 

what i do find odd as of late is the sudden venerable status of the r-d1?! when i first started looking at one seriously the internet "chatter" was strongly in the negative camp. unreliable, dodgy support and generally fragile at best. now somehow through memory loss? the "rose coloured galsses effect"? it has turned into some sort of benchmark leica failed to rise to!?! can we hope and pray that the m8 will be afforded this when the next digital rf appears?

 

in all seriousness i cannot understand the question? to abandon a perfectly good camera based solely on the internet m8 misinformation machine would be ludicrous? do we really think leica would consider this?

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I owned two M8's and sold them after six months. They were not reliable enough for the type of shooting I do or for my clients. I loved the concept of the M8 and truly hope Leica will come up with a better/stronger/more reliable version soon.

 

I wonder if Nikon or Cosina have considered creating an "M" mount digital rangefinder. If Nikon were to venture back into the rangefinder market now that the "M" mount is out of patent, I think it would have the same positive affect that the Bessa, Voightlander and Zeiss products have created by expanding Leica's reach.

 

I still shoot with my M6 and M4 bodies. (personal projects) Client work is done with the Canon Mark III's or MF digital.

 

My wish list list for a new M would be a lower noise shutter, full frame plus faster write times to cards with a larger buffer.

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Regarding the RD1, I had thought that from pre-launch info this camera had a lot going for it, but from the reports that I have read, it's not for me.

 

Lighter M8 !! My son-in-law is into art and modern design, latest Mac, iPhone, etc. When he picked up my M8, his first remark was "How lovely, tactile, and solid". After salivating over it for a few minutes, he then asked if I was leaving it too anyone in my will.

 

Stuart

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perhaps leica should consider abandoning it's current service model" first. keep the m8, the digital cl (or whatever other cameras we have dreamt up in our heads) and develop a service process can support the gear in a timely fashion.

 

what i do find odd as of late is the sudden venerable status of the r-d1?! when i first started looking at one seriously the internet "chatter" was strongly in the negative camp. unreliable, dodgy support and generally fragile at best. now somehow through memory loss? the "rose coloured galsses effect"? it has turned into some sort of benchmark leica failed to rise to!?! can we hope and pray that the m8 will be afforded this when the next digital rf appears?

 

in all seriousness i cannot understand the question? to abandon a perfectly good camera based solely on the internet m8 misinformation machine would be ludicrous? do we really think leica would consider this?

 

Well stated. I agree service is all important. I recently sent one of my M8s in for service - after about 20000 actuations - it came back within 10 working days and is a different camera. The shutter sound is less harsh and a tad quieter, the shutter release is smoother, and my gut tells me they have improved some of the electronic components to ensure greater reliability. I believe they are making excellent progress.

 

Best Regards. Terry.

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Yes, and replace it with a Fujica GS/GA style of camera with the new KAF-50100 sensor from Kodak...

 

Hey, look - the rangefinder concept is in trouble with the smaller sensor size and "depth" of current sensors, so, use a larger sensor, put it in a bigger body. Fit one good lens on front.

 

One lens?? How many times do we read "I have my 28 on one body, 50 on another" or some such. 2 bodies = no time wasted changing lenses, so dispense with the requirement of being able to change lenses; give us a good prime lens.

 

(background - for years my Canon F1n, lenses, etc, sat collecting dust, as I used almost all the time my Fujica GS645S - superior results all round)

 

Just my 0.02 euros

 

JohnS.

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what i do find odd as of late is the sudden venerable status of the r-d1?! when i first started looking at one seriously the internet "chatter" was strongly in the negative camp. unreliable, dodgy support and generally fragile at best. now somehow through memory loss? the "rose coloured galsses effect"? it has turned into some sort of benchmark leica failed to rise to!?!

 

Frankly a totally worthless statement. Those of us who use the camera are well aware of it's problems, but also can see without prejudice where it outshines the M8.

The shortcomings and reliability of the Epson are well-known and openly discussed (without any of the insecure bitterness and anger associated with such discussions of the M8 on this forum), over on the relevant forum at RFF - go take a look, or possibly even pick one up and hold it in your hand - possibly just the once.

Or alternatively you could check how, even years since its introduction and termination, the used trade in RD1s is currently brisker than M8's.

 

Anyway, no use talking to you - the outburst was obviously some sort of need for reassurance and/or superiority/inferiority complex.

 

In any case, even though I fully expect my RD1s to malfunction in the (near?) future, I will have thrown away only a couple of thousand dollars on it, and not the nearly seven thousand the M8 costs over here in Sweden. In the meantime, it actually takes really really nice pictures.

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I went back to the RD-1 for a project which needed a quieter camera than the M8 and was surprised and pleased how much I enjoyed using it. I've adjusted the rangefinder patch and it worked well. Most of all, I enjoyed having the lever wind, both to hold on to the camera and the routine of cocking the shutter after each shot. I'm glad I kept it.

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In a world of fast changing technology, sooner or later every company faces the dilemma of creating a product that cuts lose from its past or building a new product that is seriously hampered by trying to maintain backward compatibility.

 

The M family of lenses is a perfect example of this problem. The M8 was the manifestation of Leica's choice. However, trying to take lenses designed for film and building a digital camera with film like tolerances illustrates why most engineers would have preferred a clean slate. In addition to all of the teething problems Leica has faced trying to move the camera from film to digital, it has tarnished its reputation on lenses too. Issues that might never have shown up on a film camera such as the back focus and front focus errors in brand new lenses are all over this and other web sites.

 

It is time to stop with the M8, let it die its natural death which will come all too quickly and start with a new RF camera that is modern with lenses that will work with the new body. It should be small (smaller than the M8), far more ergonomic in controls, and far more modern in features such as a FF sensor (or larger if need be), rather than frame lines, adjust image magnification so the frame is constant and accurate for the distance or use electronic frame lines that adjust for distance. Electronically couples lenses so f-stop, focal length and distance to subject are all captured. No sloppy cam and roller constantly needing adjustment. New lighter lenses custom made for the camera. Both camera body and lens body made from carbon composite for light weight with complete weather sealing. ISO as good as the D700 or better. Fast internal processor for fast shooting with a very large buffer.

 

People will pay more for small size, light weight and high tech. You pay much more for a super light weight laptop weighing 3 lbs or less than a 5 lb or greater notebook. Why? People want small and light weight and they know it costs more to miniaturize.

 

So I say abandon the M8 and move into the 21st century and leap frog the competition. It is time to know when to quit flogging that old nag and get a thoroughbred if you want to win the race.

 

Let this tired and worn out, over discussed tempest in a teapot begin again.

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In a world of fast changing technology, sooner or later every company faces the dilemma of creating a product that cuts lose from its past or building a new product that is seriously hampered by trying to maintain backward compatibility.

 

The M family of lenses is a perfect example of this problem. The M8 was the manifestation of Leica's choice. However, trying to take lenses designed for film and building a digital camera with film like tolerances illustrates why most engineers would have preferred a clean slate. In addition to all of the teething problems Leica has faced trying to move the camera from film to digital, it has tarnished its reputation on lenses too. Issues that might never have shown up on a film camera such as the back focus and front focus errors in brand new lenses are all over this and other web sites.

 

It is time to stop with the M8, let it die its natural death which will come all too quickly and start with a new RF camera that is modern with lenses that will work with the new body. It should be small (smaller than the M8), far more ergonomic in controls, and far more modern in features such as a FF sensor (or larger if need be), rather than frame lines, adjust image magnification so the frame is constant and accurate for the distance or use electronic frame lines that adjust for distance. Electronically couples lenses so f-stop, focal length and distance to subject are all captured. No sloppy cam and roller constantly needing adjustment. New lighter lenses custom made for the camera. Both camera body and lens body made from carbon composite for light weight with complete weather sealing. ISO as good as the D700 or better. Fast internal processor for fast shooting with a very large buffer.

 

People will pay more for small size, light weight and high tech. You pay much more for a super light weight laptop weighing 3 lbs or less than a 5 lb or greater notebook. Why? People want small and light weight and they know it costs more to miniaturize.

 

So I say abandon the M8 and move into the 21st century and leap frog the competition. It is time to know when to quit flogging that old nag and get a thoroughbred if you want to win the race.

 

I would say that Leica should absolutely not abandon the digital M line of cameras and I sure hope they don't. Should they look at adding other lines as well? Sure.

 

BTW, I find my M8 to give reliable focus more often than any AF camera I've worked with (and that's a lot of cameras).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Let this tired and worn out, over discussed tempest in a teapot begin again.

 

I love how intolerant of open discussion people are on this forum! Any psychology students willing to study the reasons?

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Frankly a totally worthless statement. Those of us who use the camera are well aware of it's problems, but also can see without prejudice where it outshines the M8.

The shortcomings and reliability of the Epson are well-known and openly discussed (without any of the insecure bitterness and anger associated with such discussions of the M8 on this forum), over on the relevant forum at RFF - go take a look, or possibly even pick one up and hold it in your hand - possibly just the once.

Or alternatively you could check how, even years since its introduction and termination, the used trade in RD1s is currently brisker than M8's.

 

Anyway, no use talking to you - the outburst was obviously some sort of need for reassurance and/or superiority/inferiority complex.

 

In any case, even though I fully expect my RD1s to malfunction in the (near?) future, I will have thrown away only a couple of thousand dollars on it, and not the nearly seven thousand the M8 costs over here in Sweden. In the meantime, it actually takes really really nice pictures.

 

"a completely worthless statement"?!?! and you are defining my comments as an outburst? firstly, if you are going to call down what i have to opine re; digital rangefinders as "worthless" i would assume you would have the manners to grant my response an audience. secondly, i was not aware we were "talking" so forgive any offense i may have caused.

 

i have an r-d1s and have used it extensively for many years. yes it is a great camera. it's image quality falls short of the m8 in my opinion. i work day in day out on an m8 and it's reliability has been without fault. forgive me but i will formulate my opinions about it's "reliability" from that experience. i know two folks who shoot weddings full time on m8's... in there humble opinions the m8 is "reliable".

 

again the point was that the internet "chatter" had labeled the r-d1 a deeply flawed camera. with a little insight you will see that it's the "internet chatter" that i hold in disdain. if i was to have formed my opinions from said chatter i would not have purchased an r-d1s... i did and it turned out to be an excellent camera. DESPITE the constant negative opinion overflowing on the net. now, since the introduction of the m8 the internet "opinion" (insert disdainful tone here) seems to have forgotten past precedence and the r-d1 has achieved a cult status with nothing but praise. i find that apropos.

 

i use both cameras and i will not second the claim the r-d1 outshines the m8. in my opinion this is wishful thinking. i do not need to look up any re-sale information as that holds no water with me. frankly i don't care. i use what i need and can rely on. the m8 is fitting that bill just fine. the r-d1s has it's place but it's the leica that sees all the action. am i a fool to have a preference that differs from the opinion of the internet "expert's"?

 

in the future i ask that you keep things a little less personal. despite your opinion i happen to think my comments have both merit and rights to an audience. i will of course be perfectly ok sans your reassurence.

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I love how intolerant of open discussion people are on this forum! Any psychology students willing to study the reasons?

 

Stating let it begin again is not being intolerant it is making a comment about the relevancy of a post that has been hashed and rehashed on this forum and others. No one is keeping you from commenting and neither does my statement, it's my opinion and if you are suggesting I shouldn't state my opinion then perhaps your breaking your own rule. What's the psychology of that?

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Frankly a totally worthless statement. Those of us who use the camera are well aware of it's problems, but also can see without prejudice where it outshines the M8.

The shortcomings and reliability of the Epson are well-known and openly discussed (without any of the insecure bitterness and anger associated with such discussions of the M8 on this forum), over on the relevant forum at RFF - go take a look, or possibly even pick one up and hold it in your hand - possibly just the once.

Or alternatively you could check how, even years since its introduction and termination, the used trade in RD1s is currently brisker than M8's.

 

Anyway, no use talking to you - the outburst was obviously some sort of need for reassurance and/or superiority/inferiority complex.

 

In any case, even though I fully expect my RD1s to malfunction in the (near?) future, I will have thrown away only a couple of thousand dollars on it, and not the nearly seven thousand the M8 costs over here in Sweden. In the meantime, it actually takes really really nice pictures.

I love how intolerant of open discussion people are on this forum! Any psychology students willing to study the reasons?

 

What an odd couple of posts Plasticman, as you seem to be displaying your own "...insecure bitterness and anger..." concerning the RD1:)

Perhaps it's because you don't have an M8? Unlike some of the other posters who have both cameras;) .

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I went back to the RD-1 for a project which needed a quieter camera than the M8 and was surprised and pleased how much I enjoyed using it. I've adjusted the rangefinder patch and it worked well. Most of all, I enjoyed having the lever wind, both to hold on to the camera and the routine of cocking the shutter after each shot. I'm glad I kept it.

 

I have an RD-1 as well as an M8 and a Nikon D3 and I really like cocking the shutter as well. It seems add a sense of tempo to the process!

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What an odd couple of posts Plasticman, as you seem to be displaying your own "...insecure bitterness and anger..." concerning the RD1:)

Perhaps it's because you don't have an M8? Unlike some of the other posters who have both cameras;) .

 

Oh come on - I'm not allowed the odd outburst now and then?

 

Seriously, what I find extraordinary is the defensiveness of the posts on this particular forum. No-one wants the downside or any alternatives to be discussed - but to me that's what a forum is all about.

 

Anyway - I can't count how many times it's been pointed-out to me on threads here that I'm suffering from a bitter and twisted M8 envy. I don't know why I have to justify myself over-and-over, but as I've said a million times if I felt the price of the M8 was justified by it's quality, I would have bought it straight away (I was second or third on the pre-order waiting list here in Stockholm when the camera was released).

As it is, I make do with an M6, an M7, an RD1s and a modest but nice collection of lenses that includes a 21 elmarit and my favorite Noctilux...

 

Ahhh but as far as you're concerned naturally what I really want is an M8, of course!!

 

Incidentally, maybe I should add that I really do want a digital M - but not one that produces images like this at high ISOs.

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Barjohn does the usual mistake of admiring modern technology aka: electronics, and micromotors, regardless of volume or weight. You are comparing a camera so elegant and simple that can easily have two roles: that of amateur photographers and that of pro shooters. Can you even think about getting a D3/1DS with lenses and all for shooting in the streets? 2.5kg of hitech substance in your hands, or your necks? No thank you

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Ahhh but as far as you're concerned naturally what I really want is an M8, of course!!

 

You may not want one, but it does seem to be something of an obsession. I don't 'want' a Porsche, but I don't haunt Porsche forums.

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Incidentally, maybe I should add that I really do want a digital M - but not one that produces images like this at high ISOs.

 

Please - that one is almost as bad as the Leica "testimonial" shots. Good for the purpose - as Imants said the family album- but any P&S would have been the better tool there. I'll be happy to discuss high-ISO noise with you and the relationship to exposure skills and post-processing, but not in this thread

And, btw, for indoor sports I don't think I would extoll the virtues of the M8. I would take something else there.

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