Should Leica Abandon The M8?

[stevelap]

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Oh come on - I'm not allowed the odd outburst now and then?

 

Seriously, what I find extraordinary is the defensiveness of the posts on this particular forum. No-one wants the downside or any alternatives to be discussed - but to me that's what a forum is all about.

 

Anyway - I can't count how many times it's been pointed-out to me on threads here that I'm suffering from a bitter and twisted M8 envy. I don't know why I have to justify myself over-and-over, but as I've said a million times if I felt the price of the M8 was justified by it's quality, I would have bought it straight away (I was second or third on the pre-order waiting list here in Stockholm when the camera was released).

As it is, I make do with an M6, an M7, an RD1s and a modest but nice collection of lenses that includes a 21 elmarit and my favorite Noctilux...

 

Ahhh but as far as you're concerned naturally what I really want is an M8, of course!!

 

Incidentally, maybe I should add that I really do want a digital M - but not one that produces images like this at high ISOs.

 

 

I didn't say that what you really wanted was an M8 (wasn't even thinking it, honest:)), and of course you don't need to justify your opinions to me. I was just amused at the hint of defensiveness in your earlier post, in which you were pointing out what you saw as defensiveness in someone else's post!

 

Maybe it's only me that saw the funny side to that. Oh well, we're all friends here:)

[BerndReini]

John, I think that considering how intentionally provocative your original post is phrased, I am surprised that there hasn't been more name calling.

 

Honestly, you cannot be surprised at people's responses. You knew very well what you were in for when you started a post suggesting the termination of the very item that this part of the forum is all about. You are too smart for that. So now you have to be a good sport, too.

 

"I can't believe that Tiger tried to eat Roy!";)

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[Guest jimmy pro]

It amazes me that many people on this forum can not engage in a discussion about the M8 or Leica without resorting to name calling or trying to put the writer down.

 

ROTFL Well...then again you did say "amazes", not "surprizes"

[stevelap]

John, I think that considering how intentionally provocative your original post is phrased, I am surprised that there hasn't been more name calling.

 

Honestly, you cannot be surprised at people's responses. You knew very well what you were in for when you started a post suggesting the termination of the very item that this part of the forum is all about. You are too smart for that. So now you have to be a good sport, too.

 

"I can't believe that Tiger tried to eat Roy!";)

 

 

Come on John, as this poster says you are surely smart enough to realise

that suggesting the end of the M, or of backwards M lens compatibility, was likely to provoke a mild reaction, to say the least!

And most forum members are smart enough to recognise an intentionally provocative post.. So be a man and take it on the chin:) .

 

Not that there's anything wrong with stimulating a healthy debate of course, and there is surely room for some of the technological advances you advocate in any future Leica DRF, which includes future iterations of the M.

[barjohn]

Of course I knew it would be provactive. Aren't headlines supposed to draw the reader's attention and induce the reader to read more? But, it is one thing to challenge the proposition or ideas and quite another to simply bash the writer because you don't like the ideas being put forth or you disagree with them. I try, though I may not always succeed, to respond to the ideas rather than resorting to name calling or telling someone they need to get rid of their camera or they are a lousy photographer etc.

 

I fully understand the reasons people are emotionally attached to the M8. Many have a large investment in lenses and they are RF users and believers to the point of irrationality. I too like RF photography but I also have to face that my eyesight has to struggle far too often to obtain descent focus, especially with longer lenses or fast changing subjects. It's one of those darn gotchas when you finally get old enough to afford the camera your eyesight no longer supports it like it used to.

 

I think we all agree that Leica's will never be cheap cameras but to reach a broader portion of the demographic that can afford an expensive camera it must do more than that which would work well for a 20-30 year old. The average 20-30 year old is not going to spend upwards of $10K on a camera and lenses (pros making money are excepted). Size and weight are an issue. I see users here that talk about giving up their Canon or Nikon becasue of size and weight. Well, my small DOMKE bag with M8 and 4 lenses weighs over 8 lbs. The new Nikon D700 with a single zoom covering the same focal range weighs considerably less (around 3.5lbs). It is only when you add many lenses that take you far beyond the focal range of the M8 that the SLR kit weighs more. the only way you come out ahead with the M8 is if you only carry it around with a single lens. If the OLY had better IQ and FF it would be way ahead on size and weight and I would buy one.

[Guest Essemmlee]

It was because of Leica that I got into photography. After 35 years I am still paying back the debt I owe them. I will forever. I don't care about high ISO issues, dead batteries or so called camera death. I've never seen any of these things. As for commercial discussion on the merits of Leica's action plan. They'll either do it or they won't. My speculation, or yours, won't make any difference.

 

I've had Nikons, Bronnies, Hassy's, Olympii, the lot. I always came back to Leica. Not because they are expensive, high quality or even particularly good, but because I take better pictures with their gear.

 

Abandon - I rather think not. But it is a good thread.

 

End of story.

[fotografr]

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If the M8 had not allowed the use of the assortment of M type lenses I had managed to collect over the years, I doubt I would have tried it, since it would have meant a much bigger investment. So their design approach for the M8 to me seems quite reasonable.

 

 

This is absolutely right on the money. The whole impetus behind the M8 was to design a digital camera that would use the existing line of M lenses. And that is precisely why so many of us were eagerly awaiting the introduction of the M8. The photo world was rapidly moving from film to digital imaging and we wanted to be able to take our great M lenses along with us in the transition. The M8 allowed us to do just that, and you can count me among the many very happy early buyers. I will likely buy any future digital M camera that uses the current lens mount, but if something comes out that requires buying a new bevy of lenses, I doubt I'll be interested.

[terrycioni]

Not at all. I'm happy for you to post away. I'm just curious about this obsession with the M8.

 

It could be "Stockholm Syndrome".... :)

[fotografr]

A pity that a small number of people want a different camera to the oine they bought. Perhaps it proves that some will never be satisfied. Unfortunately they seem to be in the majority on this board.

 

 

 

Actually, I think they are in the extreme minority. It's just that they happen to be the ones making the most noise.

[jimrivers]

I want a new M9 with auto focus. Full frame. 60mp. Auto everything but also everything manual. Zero noise no matter what the ISO setting. Built in flash. Will use all existing lens and will be able to auto focus them. Built in cell phone with GPS. Built in voice recording. Shot 20FPS. Remote control. Can be made to be invisible. Can be made to attract beautiful women. Built in bug repellent. Small fan on the back to cool you down. 6 inch screen. Voice control. Water proof. No battery required. No SD cards required but has unlimited storage. Will always work, always.Makes zero sound. Has 500 year warranty. Sells for $19.95 US.

[Sammy1964]

19.95. Tax included?

Seriously, should Leica abandon the M8? One day yes, but not now... one day when all the old farts like us who remember what Velvia stands for and who still beleive in the Leica magic are gone, then it will be time for Leica to come up with something that will replace the inovation they brought with the first Ms, but until then let us enjoy the digital M we had been waiting for for so long. It is full of shortcomings (and in my case salt water and sand..) but I love it.

[Mauribix]

I want a new M9 with auto focus. Full frame. 60mp. Auto everything but also everything manual. Zero noise no matter what the ISO setting. Built in flash. Will use all existing lens and will be able to auto focus them. Built in cell phone with GPS. Built in voice recording. Shot 20FPS. Remote control. Can be made to be invisible. Can be made to attract beautiful women. Built in bug repellent. Small fan on the back to cool you down. 6 inch screen. Voice control. Water proof. No battery required. No SD cards required but has unlimited storage. Will always work, always.Makes zero sound. Has 500 year warranty. Sells for $19.95 US.

 

This sounds not funny (IMHO).

The O.T. was serious indeed, sorry but I can't see the point in this reply.

[Mauribix]

Of course I knew it would be provactive. Aren't headlines supposed to draw the reader's attention and induce the reader to read more? But, it is one thing to challenge the proposition or ideas and quite another to simply bash the writer because you don't like the ideas being put forth or you disagree with them. I try, though I may not always succeed, to respond to the ideas rather than resorting to name calling or telling someone they need to get rid of their camera or they are a lousy photographer etc.

 

I second this.

John, you hit the spot.

[BerndReini]

Just for the record. I, for my part, am not calling anyone a lousy photographer. I just challenge anyone to show me a large series of pictures that are bad because of the M8's limitations, but would be great otherwise. Sure, I have a few shots that could profit from a cleaner high ISO, but 97% of the time, it is my fault when the picture isn't good, and no amount of pixels can make up for that.

 

So again, I say, keep upgrading the M8 and the M lenses. For the record, I just exhibited a series of photographs I took two years ago with the Canon 5d in auto focus mode. They were mostly taken in low light at ISO 1000 and the 20inch wide prints are amazingly clean. However, most of the pictures that I considered perfectly sharp are not that sharp by rangefinder standards. And you know what, they don't need to be, they are still good pictures.

 

I have learned two things printing this exhibit: the 5d is a great camera that delivers a clean picture, but also the M8 is also a great LITTLE camera, and I have to cut it some slack.

[Guest stnami]

spot the M8...

[offshore]

When Leica went digital, with the M8, it was like Dylan going electric. He was branded a traitor, booed and catcalled. Many of his die hard fans abandoned him, but there were those who stuck around and appreciated that his music was the same, just played differently. Eventually those who had lamented the most came back around and realized that he was still a genius at what he had done, grew up and moved on. The M8 has been around for what, two years now and still the same crap is being discussed. Every time a post like this appears the same cast of characters show up. The inevitable comparisons to the RD1, the 5d and whatever the latest Nikon incarnation is. The finger pointing and name calling begins again. It is the same on every forum concerning the M8 and to what resolve? The M8 is a fact, if Leica is true to their word it ain't gonna get replaced anytime soon, it is the best DRF out there, yes it has warts but g*dd**n it if your any kind of photographer you utilize your cameras strengths to make the best images possible and learn to work with the weaknesses. It's two years folks let's grow up and move on.

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[Guest stnami]

correction :it is the best DRF out there,as it is the only one being made

[jrc]

I've never read such a load of bull in all my time here <snip>

 

You must not read the forum much: there have been much stupider things. I've even contributed a couple.

 

JC

[barjohn]

Ah! the good enough school of thought seems prevalent. To some of us good enough never is. Dissatisfaction is the mother of invention. I hold two patents because good enough wasn't. I spend enormous amounts of time thinking about how to make good enough better and better great. Thank goodness a few of us are never quite satisfied. That is why we went from the horse to the car, from the Model A (I once owned one) to the Porsche (one of those too).

 

I am puzzled though, since the lenses are beyond reproach and the prior Ms were fantastic cameras and film must have been good enough for many of you why in the world did you ever buy an M8? I'll bet the same arguments would have been found when the M5 was the RF and so on. :)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[JBA]

Film is good enough for me and I haven't bought an M8.

 

Leica could always make a digital version of the M5. Surely, they could fit a full-frame sensor into one of those.