Well thank god for Voigtlander and such...

[padraigm]

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With prices of Leica lenses going up again to even more ridiculous levels thank God for the likes of Voigtlander and Zeiss for providing affordable quality. If it was not for them I most likely would not be in the Leica/rangefinder system, or at the very least severely restricted.

 

But anyway, so why the price hikes? Is it because of the weakening dollar? Did the prices go up in Europe? I can not imagine in these uncertain times that demand has put so much pressure on Lecia products that a significant price increase again can be justified. To be honest I tend to believe the opposite. That demand is slowly inching downward and that to cover costs they need to charge such outrageous prices to just keep the operation afloat. Was the M8 selling so well that they said " hey we can get more for this" I doubt it. Not enough volume, need to raise prices. People will pay for quality, but this is a little bit beyond that.

 

I hope I am wrong, but seriously where is this going...

[rwchisholm]

This post touches on an important point: The overall price of the M system.

 

I enjoy my M8 and carry it with me pretty much all the time. I also use my D300, but for planned events, my fashion work, etc. The M8 is an amazing camera, and much more FUN to use than the D300 (or the 5D before that).

 

That said, I bought a used M8 for $3500. A lot, in my opinion, but still much less than new. The new, upcoming, D700 is less $$, and probably will end up being an amazing camera for the $$.

 

Now, if I was stuck with only Leica glass, there is no way I could afford the M system. Thank goodness that Voigtlander exists; Sean Reid has shown us that the Voigtlander glass performs very well, with many lenses "drawing" as well as Leica glass. Wow.

 

So, overall, my Leica M8 and 4 Voigtlander lenses, all purchased used, is, what one might consider, affordable. A new Leica M8 and Leica glass... Outrageous in price!

 

I really can't see the majority of professional photographers laying down 10Gs plus to get into a Leica only rangefinder system when a D300 or 5D plus some decent glass will given them similar results and cost half as much. The cost/benefit analysis just doesn't support this as being a smart investment. For the hobbyist... well, we buy what we can afford, and don't depend on the system to make our living. But how many of us will continue to dole out the cash when the prices keep going up and up?

 

Voigtlander has done a remarkable job showing the M shooter that great glass can also be affordable.

 

What happens to Leica when Nikon or Canon decide to do the same with the M camera itself?

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[sean_reid]

Anyone who has been reading me over the past couple of years knows that I've been looking at this question of M8 system cost for a long time now. Though some have vehemently disagreed with me, I still feel that the existence of CV and Zeiss lenses helps M8 sales. And, long-term, those additional M8 sales can lead to more Leica lens sales if photographer's "settle in" to the M8 system. It's often not a question of "all-Leica M8 system" vs. "CV-Zeiss-M8 system" but rather "CV-Zeiss-M8 system" vs. no M8 system at all.

 

Through various channels I've argued to Leica that it is in their interest to tolerate the various cottage industries (John Milich's products being the prime example) which help photographers who want to hand-code lenses. That seems to have had some success. I've also tried, for two years now, to convince Leica to adopt a lens menu option (to be used only by those who want to enable it). At the same time, some members of this forum have contacted Leica repeatedly to try to convince them *not* to adopt a lens menu. That lens menu effort has failed.

 

So there are different philosophies about this. Even before the US economy was in such a bad state, I argued for the value of making the M8 system as *accessible* as possible to photographers. Others feel quite differently and though I've never seen anyone come out and say the following plainly, I think that some like the idea of a Leica system being exclusive (ie: if one can't afford the lenses and the M8, he or she shouldn't have a Leica DSLR).

 

My own position, explicitly, is that I have no interest at all in the M8 being a status symbol, a talisman of good taste or whatever one might wish to call it. Leica has some outstanding lenses and they're certainly worth owning. But to say "Leica lenses or nothing" is a rather narrow view, IMHO. As for the price increase, I can't say but I think that at least some portion of the increase is due to the weakness of the US dollar. And I would guess that when they raise US lens prices, they also raise lens prices world wide.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[tbarker13]

At the same time, some members of this forum have contacted Leica repeatedly to try to convince them *not* to adopt a lens menu. That lens menu effort has failed.

 

Why in the world would anyone campaign against a lens menu? I can see why the company might not want to go that route. (and I think it's silly and ultimately bad for Leica's own business)

But why would any photographer seek to limit the abilities of his or her camera? I can't imagine a single negative to having the option to select lenses.

[sean_reid]

Why in the world would anyone campaign against a lens menu? I can see why the company might not want to go that route. (and I think it's silly and ultimately bad for Leica's own business)

But why would any photographer seek to limit the abilities of his or her camera? I can't imagine a single negative to having the option to select lenses.

 

Certain photographers who themselves would not use this option felt that adding the feature would hurt Leica lens sales, complicate the firmware, etc. There were lengthy debates about this on the forum. Everyone has a point of view. Whether or not it that POV makes sense to you or I is another matter.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

...I think that some like the idea of a Leica system being exclusive (ie: if one can't afford the lenses and the M8, he or she shouldn't have a Leica DSLR)...

 

Forgive the typo - for "DSLR" read "DRF".

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[lxlim]

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I agree with Sean's opinion on making the rangefinder accessible. Its difficult enough to push the concept of a rangefinder without adding the cost considerations.

 

In the case of the M8, unfortunately I think Leica was probably too busy fighting fires behind the scenes and likely want to limit the potential publicity damage if the M8 did actually become wildly successful.

 

Lets hope the sought for changes can come about this Photokina. Not being a Leica user before the M8, I frequently think of the M8 as a camera designed to reassure its existing M users who still used film whenever exasperation overcomes me.

 

When it came to choosing which camera to use on a job, it has become an emotional consideration for me rather than a purely technical or business approach. I "want to use" versus I "should be using".

 

Yes and thank God for Voigtlander because I would definitely not be using my M8s. My budget would have been the Nikon D3 if not for Sean pointing out the quality of the CVs and Zeiss. The biggest surprise to me was when the CVs focused more accurately than leicas. When you have 24 hours before a job and need to get a lens quick you don't want surprises like that. Thats how I ended with a CV 35 and 28. Got the 28mm Skopar because of Sean's review and will get the 28 summicron because of the same review.

 

With 5 leica lenses now. They are great lenses but the CVs are generally solid for most stuff.

[Samir Jahjah]

With prices of Leica lenses going up again to even more ridiculous levels thank God for the likes of Voigtlander and Zeiss for providing affordable quality. If it was not for them I most likely would not be in the Leica/rangefinder system, or at the very least severely restricted.

 

But anyway, so why the price hikes? Is it because of the weakening dollar? Did the prices go up in Europe? I can not imagine in these uncertain times that demand has put so much pressure on Lecia products that a significant price increase again can be justified. To be honest I tend to believe the opposite. That demand is slowly inching downward and that to cover costs they need to charge such outrageous prices to just keep the operation afloat. Was the M8 selling so well that they said " hey we can get more for this" I doubt it. Not enough volume, need to raise prices. People will pay for quality, but this is a little bit beyond that.

 

I hope I am wrong, but seriously where is this going...

 

I fully agree. The existence of the VC 12 and 15 convinced me to get the M8! I already owned several leica lenses, and I sold some to make some room to get the M8, so gone the Summilux 75 1.4 and the Leica 21mm.

 

I am sure that Leica would sell more M8s if the system was more open, with a menu to select lenses for instance!

[delander †]

6-bit coding and the associated technology is what allowed Leica to make a DRF with a good size sensor. It is their proprietary technology and it may be what has stopped CV or Zeiss coming out with a DRF.

 

The fact that only Leica lenses are 6-bit coded has put me off buying Zeiss or CV alternatives. The other aspect of non-Leica lenses is the RF coupling and focusing. How does one sort out a problem of mismatch?

 

I would love to see manual coding included in the FW, but to be totally honest if that had been the case I would have bought more CV or Zeiss glass. I am not campaigning here. It may be that opening the system would lead to more DRFs and a more general adoption of DRFs. Would this be of benefit to Leica in the long term, I don't know but there is a view that it would.

 

Jeff

[Mauribix]

I can confirm that Leica's prices were grown up two times in the last year and a half in Europe too.

It's even funny the last time it happened, I went to my dealer asking for the 75cron price, I decided to buy it two weeks later, they ordered it for me and next week it arrived (so the third week)and I had to pay 200€ (310& +/-) more because of the last price increase.

Matter of fact this was April 2008, and the last price increase, if I'm not wrong happened before december 2008.

[Mauribix]

Frankly I believe that if the IR problems were really solved, maybe the "luxury" to keep the system closed with this 6bit-hat-trick could be somehow justified.

I.E. (let me write an hypotetic sentence):

"you don't have problems with other manufaturer's lenses, but if you want the best quality, without vignetting, or everything else, you'd better buy a Leica lens, maybe you could even achive a colour profile with every Leica lens with the in-camera correction...bla...bla...bla"

This, for me, could be accepted, and maybe even right.Matter of fact, every manufacturer does almost the same.

 

But, since 6bit coding, is almost only (please read carefully almost!) a way to solve an M8's issue (cyan-WA), my thought is that it should be opened with a selectable menu.

The day that IR problems would be solved, I would be maybe (please read carefully maybe) happy to have this system closed: I pay more (for my Leica lenses), I get more, but untill then, Zeiss and CV's lenses proved to be at the same level so many times to me, that frankly, I still don't know why I keep on buyin' Leica's.

 

Let me say the last two words, 6bit coding was sold as the "fantastic evolution" of the Leica lens in the digital era, it could be great if it was true. The fact is that this simply saved the M8's project, otherway sunk by IR.

 

Let's go Leica, please do something to really solve the IR problem, I had to spend 80-160€ for every lens that I coded, and 149€ for every filter that I needed just because of my M8, and they were only original Leica lenses!... really sick.

[Mauribix]

...6-bit coding and the associated technology is what allowed Leica to make a DRF with a good size sensor. It is their proprietary technology and it may be what has stopped CV or Zeiss coming out with a DRF....

 

Jeff

 

with all the rispect in the world, I don't believe this is true. Epson (maybe with CV beside?) was already there without any kind of closed system.

[Eoin]

I'll toss in my 2c worth, I'm thankful there is an option with Voigtlander and Zeiss. I haven't used their lenses but by all reports they are excellent. Perhaps the only addition I need to make to my lens set is an ultra wide and I'm seriously considering the 12CV. I don't know why I'm waiting to see what Leica announce in September as odds are it will be too expensive for an occasional use lens.

 

With regard to the M8 and Leica lens pricing, well I consider myself lucky so far, I got my M8 duty free in November 06 which saved at least €1000 on street prices here at the time. I also got 30% off a Noctilux from Leica and sold it later making a very tidy sum of money.

My 28 Summicron Asph I found 2nd hand on ebay for a steal and my 50 Summilux asph I bought new.

 

So by in large I feel I'm ahead of most in terms of my outlay. There is no denying the lenses are outrageously expensive, but on the other hand they are stunningly good. I've not seen CA to the degree I saw with Canon lenses and the images have little or no falloff towards the edges. Are they worth the money?, here I adopt the view, if you buy new you'll loose, if you buy secondhand you'll quite possibly retain value. The choice is yours, but it's the same with everything one buys new, as soon as you walk out of the shop it's worth 30% less.

I don't believe they are worth the money at my level of photography, but I have them anyhow now and intend keeping them. I can see a quality gap between the Canon prime L's I used before and these Leica primes but these gaps are both stark and subtle at the same time. I can see the difference clearly but others who look at my photos don't see such a difference.

 

So perhaps it's out of personal satisfaction when I was putting my M8 kit together I opted to buy Leica lenses, in part to subdue the inner voice of questioning and wondering what would Leica glass be really like if I had bought another brand. I'm totally satisfied with the quality of the images I can produce with the M8 and it's lenses, I don't feel a need exists (for me) to lust after full frame, more MP or better high ISO. My Leica kit should see me through a long time of use, perhaps with the lenses even a lifetime.

 

But you are right, euro for euro, quality for quality, from what I've seen here, the leica lenses offer less bang for the buck than the Voigtlander and Zeiss. But life is not all about rational decisions, is it?.

[jlancasterd]

....It's often not a question of "all-Leica M8 system" vs. "CV-Zeiss-M8 system" but rather "CV-Zeiss-M8 system" vs. no M8 system at all...

Sean

 

That was exactly my position when I bought an M8. I already owned an R8-DMR with 28-90 and 21-35 Leica zooms and couldn't have afforded both an M8 body and the Leica lenses for it - even buying secondhand. The existence of the excellent CV range made it possible for me to buy an M8. If CV lenses hadn't existed I'd have had to do without an M8, much as I prefer using a rangefinder camera for general work.

[delander †]

with all the rispect in the world, I don't believe this is true. Epson (maybe with CV beside?) was already there without any kind of closed system.

 

I did not have the Epson but wasn't the sensor smaller than that in the Leica and don't the problems get worse as the sensor gets bigger and this is now a problem for a FF M digital camera?

 

I thought that Leica announced the 6-bit before they realised how bad the IR problem was?

 

6-bit coding is central to Leica. They could license it to Zeiss and CV. Their strategic marketing should be considering all these options. As just one consumer all am saying is that buying a 6-bit Leica coded lens is hassle free compared to the other options. If I could have bought 6-bit Zeiss or CV then I would have, had less Leica lenses and saved some money. Leica would have lost some of my money.

 

I have the cv12mm, it is a fine lens, but lack of coding and no hassle-free IR resolution does limit its use (for me)

 

Jeff

[stunsworth]

I did not have the Epson but wasn't the sensor smaller than that in the Leica and don't the problems get worse as the sensor gets bigger and this is now a problem for a FF M digital camera?

 

Yes the Epson had a sensor with a crop factor of 1.6, and even at this reduced size vignetting was worse than with the M8.

[delander †]

 

I am sure that Leica would sell more M8s if the system was more open, with a menu to select lenses for instance!

 

They probably would, but would then sell less glass. So which is best for the Leica Company short and long term?

 

Jeff

[georg]

It's great when other companies offer additional solutions like the 12mm & 15mm-lenses or cheaper lenses with lower quality for those who can't afford new & used Leica-lenses.

 

But you have to be aware of the fact that Leica-lenses are still worth their money, their design is much more complex and innovative (aspheric elements, special glass, concave front elements -> no gauss-design, floating elements) and that the used materials and assemblation technologies are better (100% tested, black painted element-sides, custom calibration with exact measurement of the focal length...) .

 

Cosina makes propably more money with a 1000$-lens than Leica with a 3000$-lens - you don't pay for the name!

The 2,8/35-70 cost about 3000$ and a Leica-employee told me that this price didn't even cover the production costs! The new 1,4/50Asph is only as "expensive" as the old 1,4/50 because of more sophisticated production technology - one lens element in the new Asph costs as much as all elements of the predecessor together!

 

I'm working in production and know that many materials (brass, aluminium...) and suppliers got MUCH more expensive the last years.

The other big problem is the currency, the Euro is nearly twice as much worth as the dollar than 6 years before!

Of course Leica will invest further into production technology but as you see with Carl Zeiss (film lenses, 2/85, 2,8/15), this quality will never be cheap and it would be as expensive when it would be manufactured in Japan!

 

But you can buy groundbreaking lenses with a quality that has become rare in our society that you can enjoy for decades, not something that makes the shareholder value happy but the customer! Isn't that more important than another average quality product?

 

P.S. A Leica M3 with 2/50 cost 1200DM in Germany in 1954 - a worker had to work at least 4 months to buy such a quality product! The M7+2/50 costs now 4400€ - that are about 2 months work...

[Alberti]

() 6-bit coding is central to Leica. They could license it to Zeiss and CV. Their strategic marketing should be considering all these options. As just one consumer all am saying is that buying a 6-bit Leica coded lens is hassle free compared to the other options. If I could have bought 6-bit Zeiss or CV then I would have, had less Leica lenses and saved some money. Leica would have lost some of my money.

Jeff

 

Jeff, I see this is a consumer perspective; but I see modern marketing ('New Rules for the New Economy, Kevin Kelly) from a different point of view. Those that give away the standards (for free - in our case the 6-bit code) ensure the product will never become a niche. I did buy a CV 25 lens (cash deficit) but now am seriously thinking of upgrading. Only one supplier in the market is dead; a group has more innovations and product offers to share.

 

Giving the codes away will allow other companies to code, PLUS it should give them access to the base of lens definitions behind that; i.e. the corrections and the lens naming; where a 'standards body' should ensure lens codes are not overlapping. If this is established good the value of the Leica company should increase (set theory as identified by the same Kelly calculates the added sales potential). Then the problem of "what lens code should I use" is gone too. The result is more sales in total.

alberti

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Vieri]

Though some have vehemently disagreed with me, I still feel that the existence of CV and Zeiss lenses helps M8 sales. And, long-term, those additional M8 sales can lead to more Leica lens sales if photographer's "settle in" to the M8 system. It's often not a question of "all-Leica M8 system" vs. "CV-Zeiss-M8 system" but rather "CV-Zeiss-M8 system" vs. no M8 system at all.

 

Hey Sean,

 

this reflects very well my history with the M8 & Leica. I got interested in the M8, got one, got a CV 2.5/35 to start with; I loved the process, the files and how the RF style suited my street photography; got a couple of Zeiss - 2.8/25, 2/35, 1.5/50 - and loved the results even better; then, getting more involved and acquainted with the RF system & shooting, I started trying Leica lenses and ended up with some: 1.4/50 ASPH, 2.8/24 ASPH; tried a 21 pre-ASPH and sold it; tried a 35 Lux but either I didn't got a good feel for it, or it wasn't a good copy so I didn't keep it; decided to start shooting film again thanks to the RF concept and got a M6; to make the story short, I now got 2 M8, 1 MP, 1 CV lens (15 mm), 24, 2/35 v. IV, 50 lux, nocti, 75 lux, 90 cron pre-ASPH. Definitely the CV 35 brought some good business to Leica IMHO

 

By the way, I am now selling one M8 (see classified) and going to settle for a 2 MP-1 M8 RF kit - I couldn't resist the call back from film!