stunsworth Posted July 1, 2008 Share #21 Posted July 1, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) As Leica Camera AG is not the manufacturer of the SD card reader in the M8, drivers for this reader should be normally provided by the manufacturer itself (Panasonic, Toshiba, Ricoh, etc). Leica should just "add" them and "compile" the new firmware Is really as simple as that? Wouldn't any 'driver' software have to be processor specific at the very least? As you can tell this isn't an area in which I have any experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here I Hate To Bring This Up But...how Much Longer For New Firmware?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gwelland Posted July 1, 2008 Share #22 Posted July 1, 2008 Is really as simple as that? Wouldn't any 'driver' software have to be processor specific at the very least? As you can tell this isn't an area in which I have any experience. Steve, you're right - it's NEVER that simple. I've developed a few embedded software systems in the past and I've never had a simple plug 'n play type of setup as was hinted at. At a high level it SHOULD be as easy as compiling in the driver for the chip platform but the devil is in the details. How much free space is there in the firmware for the new code? Is the driver bug free? Are there any unexpected side effects from using the new driver code? Is there even driver code or do I have to write all the interface logic myself using hardware specs? etc etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted July 1, 2008 Share #23 Posted July 1, 2008 Steve, you're right - it's NEVER that simple. I've developed a few embedded software systems in the past and I've never had a simple plug 'n play type of setup as was hinted at. At a high level it SHOULD be as easy as compiling in the driver for the chip platform but the devil is in the details. How much free space is there in the firmware for the new code? Is the driver bug free? Are there any unexpected side effects from using the new driver code? Is there even driver code or do I have to write all the interface logic myself using hardware specs? etc etc. C'mon, Graham, it's more than a year now that Leica says they're working on that... so I can only see two possibilities: Leica developers are very bad (which imply the software/firmware they produced is also bad) or Leica is not telling the truth. To be honest, for a camera sold at 4800 € and with Leica legendary quality reputation this SHOULD never had happened. . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted July 1, 2008 Share #24 Posted July 1, 2008 Don't get me wrong - I don't mean to sound like I'm making excuses for Leica not having SDHC support. As a software guy vs user, I'm just saying that it's not as simple as recompiling some new code, that's all. I agree with you & I can think of no good reason why SDHC support hasn't been added after all this time unless, of course, there's some underling glitch that we're not aware of. Lack of SDHC support is certainly going to become more limiting in terms of SD card selection as time goes by. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted July 1, 2008 Share #25 Posted July 1, 2008 Don't get me wrong - I don't mean to sound like I'm making excuses for Leica not having SDHC support. As a software guy vs user, I'm just saying that it's not as simple as recompiling some new code, that's all. I agree with you & I can think of no good reason why SDHC support hasn't been added after all this time unless, of course, there's some underling glitch that we're not aware of. Lack of SDHC support is certainly going to become more limiting in terms of SD card selection as time goes by. Graham, I didn't get it badly. I also come from a major software company and I'm an engineer. In a normal basis, I agree 100% with what you said. But adding to a firmware a SDHC driver should never take a year. I really want to see how Leica will deal with this. I have the intime convinction M8 hardware is not SDHC compatible and SDHC support will be impossible by firmware update. I just want to see how Leica moves... There's something very wierd with the M8 and SD cards... too many problems reported... cards stop working... pictures lost... formatting problems... I've never seen this with any other camera before. People blame SD cards, I blame Leica. I just hope Leica will correct this in the next firmware. Regards . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted July 1, 2008 Share #26 Posted July 1, 2008 I still would like somebody to give me a solid explanation for why SDHC is so urgently needed on the M8. The battery capacity is only good for maybe a little over 2GB (and you can get a 4GB non-HC card). The camera can't shoot in continuous fast enough to make full use of high write speeds. SD cards are the size of postage stamps and there cheap. Why the hang wringing over SDHC? Is it mainly because it's embarrassing to people there six grand camera doesn't use the latest card? Or fear non-HC will become extinct? To me, 8 2GB cards means 1/8 the chance of losing all my shots to corruption if a 16GB card craps out. I have to pop the bottom off my M8 to change the battery about the time I fill a 2GB card anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 1, 2008 Share #27 Posted July 1, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Non-HC cards are getting rarer and are more expensive that SDHC. Also if you run more than one system it's nice to be able to use any card in every camera. I imagine that the fact that there are still non-SDHC cards available explains why Leica have not had it as their highest priority item in the firmware fix list. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted July 1, 2008 Share #28 Posted July 1, 2008 I To me, 8 2GB cards means 1/8 the chance of losing all my shots to corruption if a 16GB card craps out. Couldn't agree more - I suppose the concern will be how long we have access to this kind of media... but that's also part of the joy of digital! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted July 1, 2008 Share #29 Posted July 1, 2008 Non-HC cards are getting rarer and are more expensive that SDHC. I haven't seen that at least here in the US. Lots of other things besides camera's use SD cards (like my GPS for example) and don't need gobs of memory or blazing speed. But yeah, it would be pretty embarrassing for everyone who bought an M8 thinking it would last them at least 5 years if not more if SD cards went the way of SmartMedia. Maybe a good idea to stock up, like the film guy's are doing with film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted July 1, 2008 Share #30 Posted July 1, 2008 I still would like somebody to give me a solid explanation for why SDHC is so urgently needed on the M8. The battery capacity is only good for maybe a little over 2GB (and you can get a 4GB non-HC card). The camera can't shoot in continuous fast enough to make full use of high write speeds. SD cards are the size of postage stamps and there cheap. Why the hang wringing over SDHC? Is it mainly because it's embarrassing to people there six grand camera doesn't use the latest card? Or fear non-HC will become extinct? To me, 8 2GB cards means 1/8 the chance of losing all my shots to corruption if a 16GB card craps out. I have to pop the bottom off my M8 to change the battery about the time I fill a 2GB card anyway. My feelings exactly. I get about a 2Gb card on a full charge....so I rotate 16 cards. This gives me a little extra backup as I format when I load the card. My battery usage is based on having the camera active for 2-3 hours ..I set it for shutdown after 10 minutes of no use..so its on most of the time which contributes to the drain. The 2Gb cards are readily available in the USA and dirt cheap...less than $10/GB on specials. Now if I had a better performing battery that would be great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share #31 Posted July 3, 2008 It sounds like some of you are saying Leica should not have to meet their published specifications. Since Leica is free to change their published specifications at any time why not just say the M8 doesn't support SDHC and never will so stock up on SD cards if you buy one. Oh!, make sure you only buy the following brands because any other brand will cause camera lock up, lose images and other unexpected problems. Don't expect firmware improvements because our software is developed by an outside group and they can't really deliver much in the way of improvements or bug fixes but you should be able to live with what we give you. Whatever you do, don't use anything but newer Leica lenses with 6 bit coding because we won't support the ability to select focal length in the menu system. P.S. High ISO can only be achieved once you reach expert level... maybe. For god's sake stick to 2GB cards because the battery will die before you use all of the space so why bother with those flakey 4GB cards? ALL FOR ONLY $5,500 but we are LEICA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted July 3, 2008 Share #32 Posted July 3, 2008 It sounds like some of you are saying Leica should not have to meet their published specifications. Since Leica is free to change their published specifications at any time why not just say the M8 doesn't support SDHC and never will so stock up on SD cards if you buy one. Oh!, make sure you only buy the following brands because any other brand will cause camera lock up, lose images and other unexpected problems. Don't expect firmware improvements because our software is developed by an outside group and they can't really deliver much in the way of improvements or bug fixes but you should be able to live with what we give you. Whatever you do, don't use anything but newer Leica lenses with 6 bit coding because we won't support the ability to select focal length in the menu system. P.S. High ISO can only be achieved once you reach expert level... maybe. For god's sake stick to 2GB cards because the battery will die before you use all of the space so why bother with those flakey 4GB cards? ALL FOR ONLY $5,500 but we are LEICA. There is nothing that firmware is going to do that will fundamentally change the M8. SDHC was never supported. The camera is what it is and by now anyone buying it should now exactly what they are getting. No need for hand wringing and histrionics. If you find enough value in it buy it if you don't then don't. Digital cameras made for narrow market niches will always be expensive and will not be on the cutting edge of technology. You need economies of scale and the big resources they support for that. So don't hold your breadth waiting for an M compatible DRF that is reasonably priced with the latest in digital tech, the return on investment ensures no one will be stepping up to lose their shirt. Leica was in the unique position of being the only camera manufacturer in the world dependent on an RF camera for their survival. They really had no choice but to take the M digital. If they had a successful DSLR line there never would have been a digital M. They could have done better. They also could have done a lot worse. I've yet to find a camera that was not a compromise in dozens of different ways. You pick what works best for you and live with the compromises. Pro DSLR's were more of a compromise for my way of working then the M8 so I use an M8 for most things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share #33 Posted July 3, 2008 Hank, Why would you think every consumer would or should know that the M8 doesn't support SDHC when the specifications say it does? I disagree completely that cutting edge technology automatically means more expensive. While a cutting edge chip may initially be more expensive the price curve generally drops very quickly and often the chip may replace a handful of chips that were previously required resulting in a net lower cost. There are many ways to cut the costs of manufacturing including farming out the assembly of modules to high volume circuit board producers and just doing final test and assembly of modules. Design costs can be cut by leveraging off of modules provided by various component vendors and just modifying the design in firmware. Buy an existing DSLR design that fits your form factor and modify it to meet RF requirements in software, If your assumptions were correct there would be no innovation unless it comes from the corporate giants. This hasn't been true in the past nor is it likely to be true in the future. Big corporations are heavily stifled by big bureaucracies and often get passed by some innovative small company that is nimble and can take advantage of new technology faster than they can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted July 3, 2008 Share #34 Posted July 3, 2008 Hank, Why would you think every consumer would or should know that the M8 doesn't support SDHC when the specifications say it does? I disagree completely that cutting edge technology automatically means more expensive. While a cutting edge chip may initially be more expensive the price curve generally drops very quickly and often the chip may replace a handful of chips that were previously required resulting in a net lower cost. There are many ways to cut the costs of manufacturing including farming out the assembly of modules to high volume circuit board producers and just doing final test and assembly of modules. Design costs can be cut by leveraging off of modules provided by various component vendors and just modifying the design in firmware. Buy an existing DSLR design that fits your form factor and modify it to meet RF requirements in software, If your assumptions were correct there would be no innovation unless it comes from the corporate giants. This hasn't been true in the past nor is it likely to be true in the future. Big corporations are heavily stifled by big bureaucracies and often get passed by some innovative small company that is nimble and can take advantage of new technology faster than they can. I did not infer that cutting edge technology was more expensive. In fact I said for mass market products the opposite. Because of the constraint of using the M mount Leica could not use existing DSLR design. The flange to sensor register on the M is to narrow. Vignetting would have been extreme. Software was not adequate to compensate they had to have Kodak come up with specialized microlenses for the sensor. If they could have scraped the digital unfriendly M mount they could have leveraged existing DSLR technology but that was a marketing non starter. When it comes to consumer electronics if it's for a narrow market and you can't lift a design from an application with a much larger market without the need for a lot of custom development you will be spreading the development cost over fewer units. That means a higher price tag and less money for innovation and development. That is pretty much Leica's position. I have not seen any Leica sized shop in the DSLR world out innovating Canon-Nikon-Sony. On the contrary there has been a lot of consolidation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share #35 Posted July 3, 2008 I understand the issues of the lens mount and Vignetting; however, the Kodak micro lenses is but one possible solution and who knows when some innovative and smart individual comes up with a better and cheaper solution. Yes consolidation is occurring in the market, usually the sign of a maturing market. Remember when everyone thought that Microsoft would never have any competition because of their size and market dominance. Windows would be the only OS. Then comes this crazy upstart with no money and Linux is born. Sure, it doesn't have Microsoft's market share, yet, but then along came Mac OS and it too is stealing market share everyday. The cell phone business was once that giant of communications called Motorola, not today. You just never know with technology and the creative ingenuity of the human mind. Someone may come along that just doesn't know it can't be done and they do it. Frankly, Sigma has come close, they just blew it on some of the fundamentals in an effort to use lower cost components. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted July 3, 2008 Share #36 Posted July 3, 2008 I understand the issues of the lens mount and Vignetting; however, the Kodak micro lenses is but one possible solution and who knows when some innovative and smart individual comes up with a better and cheaper solution. Yes consolidation is occurring in the market, usually the sign of a maturing market. Remember when everyone thought that Microsoft would never have any competition because of their size and market dominance. Windows would be the only OS. Then comes this crazy upstart with no money and Linux is born. Sure, it doesn't have Microsoft's market share, yet, but then along came Mac OS and it too is stealing market share everyday. The cell phone business was once that giant of communications called Motorola, not today. You just never know with technology and the creative ingenuity of the human mind. Someone may come along that just doesn't know it can't be done and they do it. Frankly, Sigma has come close, they just blew it on some of the fundamentals in an effort to use lower cost components. No doubt some paradigm shifting innovator will come along out of some virtual garage. But not likely out of any traditional camera company. Red comes closest to that sort of innovation in my mind in the current market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted July 3, 2008 Share #37 Posted July 3, 2008 Not that there is much need for new firmware, imho but I would have thought they will release it sometime close to Photokina so that they can issue a press release about it and get maximum coverage, like they did earlier in the year. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto_Fosch Posted July 3, 2008 Share #38 Posted July 3, 2008 I think there will be a new firmware with increased jpeg quality. I have seen a camera with a new firmware version (1.22). The thumbnails on the screen showed a increased quality compared to my camera with the current firmware 1.201. The time to delete the jpeg was a little bit longer (due to the fact that the created file has a higher resolution less compressed?). Both cameras were set to DNG only. Maybe the thumbnails for the screen are generated with the same in-camera jpeg-algorithm like the stored jpeg-files on the card. Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted July 3, 2008 Share #39 Posted July 3, 2008 It´s better to give Leica some more time for the new firmware, believe me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted July 3, 2008 Share #40 Posted July 3, 2008 It´s better to give Leica some more time for the new firmware, believe me. Like we have a choice? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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