Sensor issue?

[ArtZ]

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Can someone explain me this cyan fringing? Two bodies, two different lenses (but it happens with all my lenses). I always get this effect in high contrast situations.

 

I have made the same test with a Digilux-3, Canon 5D, Canon G9 and Ricoh GRD II and I don’t get cyan fringing or just very little with the Canon G9 and the Ricoh GRD II

 

Nobody has experienced this before?

 

Thanks for your suggestions

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[Dikdik]

Can someone explain me this cyan fringing? Two bodies, two different lenses (but it happens with all my lenses). I always get this effect in high contrast situations.

 

I have made the same test with a Digilux-3, Canon 5D, Canon G9 and Ricoh GRD II and I don’t get cyan fringing or just very little with the Canon G9 and the Ricoh GRD II

 

Nobody has experienced this before?

 

Thanks for your suggestions

 

 

 

Hello Artz, this is obviously not a problem with the camera or the lens but with the basic settings of the computer program you use for foto processing.

Most probabely you should reduce the cyan colour saturation.

Best regards and good luck

Dikdik

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[ArtZ]

Hello Artz, this is obviously not a problem with the camera or the lens but with the basic settings of the computer program you use for foto processing.

Most probabely you should reduce the cyan colour saturation.

Best regards and good luck

Dikdik

 

Nothing to do with RAW processing, you can see the cyan fringes on the camera LCD. This happens from /f1.4 to /f4-/f4.5 (I don't have a Noctilux to test at /f1) on high contrast situations. Higher is the aperture, more cyan you get.

[mjh]

Looks like longitudinal chromatic aberration to me – like purple fringing, only different (blue rather than purple). I don’t think it is a sensor issue.

[okram]

If You use Lightroom, turn on the Defringe to all edges.

[ArtZ]

Looks like longitudinal chromatic aberration to me – like purple fringing, only different (blue rather than purple). I don’t think it is a sensor issue.

 

Danke Michael.

 

I have no clue what's the reason of this.

 

First, I thought it was a lens issue because when I saw this for the first time (last year), I was using a CV Nokton 35/1.2. It happened also a few times with a CV Nokton 50/1.5. I thought that was the price to pay for using fast CV lenses instead of Leica.

 

But this weekend it happened again with the Summilux 35 and the Summicron 50. Then I decided to test all my lenses (6 Leica, 3 CV and 2 Zeiss). I didn't get this with the WATE nor the MATE (/f4 I suppose) but with all other lenses I get these blue fringes on both M8s.

 

I was just wondering if the sensor cannot cope with high contrast situation like this and if this could be, maybe, fixed by firmware.

 

It could be interesting if you can repeat this test with your M8s and fast lenses.

 

 

If You use Lightroom, turn on the Defringe to all edges.

 

okram,

 

I've tried to use PS CS3 option "Defringe to all edges" but it doesn't work at all. Nothing happens. You can try yourself using the pictures I have posted here.

 

Thanks

[HetDraakje]

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Can this be due to extreme sharpening? for example 4th picture right ear; This one has a clear white edge, where no border is to be expected

 

Boen

[ArtZ]

Can this be due to extreme sharpening? for example 4th picture right ear; This one has a clear white edge, where no border is to be expected

 

Boen

 

Hi Boen,

 

No sharpening... both M8s are set by default. I was shooting DNG only. These images haven't been modified at all with PS CS3 (not even WB). As I said previously I can see the blue fringes on the camera LCD while zooming.

 

Pictures 1 and 3 are crops of original images and resized later to the maximum size allowed to be posted here.

 

Pictures 2, 4 and 5 are crops 100% of original images (no resize at all).

 

All these pictures were taken in the middle of the afternnon. Light conditions outside the window was a cloudly weather (not even sunshine or bright light).

 

Regards

[robertwright]

my noct does that at f1 around highlights and points light sources. I have not seen it on other lenses.

 

but I believe there is also a sensor issue, in the same conditions it (mine) will produce jagged pixelated edges around hi contrast edges. I just have not had the time to send the camera in. I have a feeling the blue is related to that, one channel is blooming uncontrolled.

 

It don't believe it is processing related either since all raw converters will yield the same result.

[bertgossen]

What is the lightsource inside the room? If it is from incondescent light, the blue on the edges might result from the light temperature changing at the edge.

Try sliding the color temperature slider in your raw converter towards yellow, and see, as the face turns yellow/orange whether the blue edge disappears.

It would be helpful, if you could post the dng somewhere, so people here would be able to see whether they get the same extreme result in their own specific workflow/raw conversion.

 

Bert

[jaapv]

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/54721-weird-effect.html

 

The consensus is that it is caused by outside light interfering with the lightbalance of the inside light, blowing out the blue channel. In your case you took images in a strong contrejour situation,outside light bleeding around the edges, causing the effect to appear as fringing. Cloudy light is more blue than bright sunlight, so conditions couln't have been worse in your case

[RSL]

I think Jaap has the answer. I've seen the exact same thing with the Nikon D3 under similar circumstances. Not as pronounced, but still, there.

[robertwright]

tens of thousands of 5D frames for me have not produced anything as pronounced as this, in similar situations, (beyond the usual CA associated with Canon wide angle lenses:)

 

my opinion is that this is a flaw and should not occur.

 

that quoted thread in my opinion is not relevant to this issue, the blue reflections were caused by late evening light underexposed and were rendering correctly imo. This is some sort of channel blooming.

[robsteve]

Were you using the UV-IR filters?

 

That fringe is common on CCD cameras, but not usually that wide. The extreme over exposure of the windows make the image bleed at the transition. It may be a combination of the edge contrast and what Jaap posted.

 

BTW, if you use APO lenses it will be less prominent. It may just be that the APO lenses will draw this sharp transition line much finer. What lens did you use for the posted shots? It seemed to be flaring quite a bit too. If a Leica lens is flaring like that, just imagine how the light is bouncing around off the glass sensor.

 

Robert

[robertwright]

so its ccd vs. cmos?

[jaapv]

so its ccd vs. cmos?

 

Not really, CMos shows plenty of blooming and other reactions in extremes as well. In a shot like this: extreme contrast and huge variation in colour temperature, it is not a question if some nasty will appear but rather which one will, be it on CCD,CMos or film. The M8 is known for blue fringes around heavily blown specular highlights, other cameras will produce purple. The background in this shot is one large specular highlight. Add that to my speculation, well,it ain't pretty, I admit, but I guess a CMos would have shown something similar, maybe a double fringe: purple and blue. We will have to wait for technology to catch up with our demands, I guess:o

 

Notice by the way, that it does not happen where the faintest detail is in the background.

[ArtZ]

What is the lightsource inside the room? If it is from incondescent light, the blue on the edges might result from the light temperature changing at the edge.

Try sliding the color temperature slider in your raw converter towards yellow, and see, as the face turns yellow/orange whether the blue edge disappears.

It would be helpful, if you could post the dng somewhere, so people here would be able to see whether they get the same extreme result in their own specific workflow/raw conversion.

 

Bert

 

Bert,

 

There's no lightsource inside the room, just natural light comming from outside through two windows.

 

I have deleted the DNGs from the SD card this morning. I have only the JPGs on my laptop, but if you wanna play with them I can take other pictures today or tomorrow (it's really easy to reproduce this blue fringes) and post them in Rapidshare or something like that.

 

When I took these pictures yesterday afternoon I was just testing all my lenses because, in the morning, I had seen these blue fringes with a Summilux 35 and a Summicron 50. These shots were not meant to be kept.

 

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/54721-weird-effect.html

 

The consensus is that it is caused by outside light interfering with the lightbalance of the inside light, blowing out the blue channel. In your case you took images in a strong contrejour situation,outside light bleeding around the edges, causing the effect to appear as fringing. Cloudy light is more blue than bright sunlight, so conditions couln't have been worse in your case

 

Jaap,

 

Thanks for pointing out the thread mentioned above but I don't think it's the same issue. I've seen sometimes that kind of blue reflections in some pictures taken late in the evening indoors: I remember one taken in my kitchen in front of the window; I had very similar blue shadows as in the picture taken in your dining room.

 

When I saw the blue fringes the first time it was autum last year with my "lost-in-the-mail" (sniff...) CV Nokton 35/1.2 in the "quartier juif". After taking some pictures indoors at f/1.2, I completely forgot about it and I took a couple of quick contre-jour outside. When I got home and saw the pictures, I noticed the same blue fringes as posted above (maybe a little less prononced).

 

It also happened in NYC last November with a Nockton 50/1.5 after John Milich code it. Both times I blamed the Noktons: CA I thought. I concluded this was the price to pay for non Leica ultra fast lenses.

 

But yesterday, while I was taking pictures of my garden, this happened again with the Summilux 35 @ f/1.4... and I tried with a Summicron 50 @ f/2... idem.

 

Were you using the UV-IR filters?

 

That fringe is common on CCD cameras, but not usually that wide. The extreme over exposure of the windows make the image bleed at the transition. It may be a combination of the edge contrast and what Jaap posted.

 

BTW, if you use APO lenses it will be less prominent. It may just be that the APO lenses will draw this sharp transition line much finer. What lens did you use for the posted shots? It seemed to be flaring quite a bit too. If a Leica lens is flaring like that, just imagine how the light is bouncing around off the glass sensor.

 

Robert

 

Robert,

 

I've tried removing the IR/UV filters and it's the same thing. No noticeable difference.

 

In regard of APO lenses, I have also tried with my Summicron 90 APO ASPH and the blue fringes are still there. There're more visible at f/1.4 and f/1.5 (Summilux 35 and Nokton 50) but they're also visible with the CV Color Skopar 75/2.5, Summicron 50, Summicron 28 and APO 90. Only with the MATE and the WATE they're not visible.

 

BTW: All my lenses are brand new (5 Leica and 3 CV bought last year at La Maison du Leica and CameraQuest) except a last generation MATE (mint) and 2 ZM I bought to Wilson Laidlaw.

 

Anyway, as this happens with my both M8s (including the latest one built in February 2008), there's no point sending them to Solms because they probably don't know how to fix it. I wonder if Leica can fix this by firmware. Having the M8 a shutter speed of 1/8000 and lenses f/1.4 (even f/1.0) it's a pity not be able to use these avantages to get beautiful blur in sunny days, don't you think so?

[ArtZ]

Here some more examples.

 

You can download the original DNG files at:

 

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

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[ArtZ]

And the last two pictures

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Hallo,

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[robertwright]

did you shoot this with your noct?

 

correction you said you don't have a noct to test at f1.0.

 

I see this a lot unfortunately, the only workaround is to underexpose to preserve the highlight more and post-process for the shadows. My opinion is that for whatever reason, other dslr's handle this much better, I wish I understood why. I think perhaps the lack of an AA filter causes the edge transitions to be sharper and this is where I see it more. in out of focus areas it is not as bad. pain in the ass tho.