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Leica M8 bashed by Michael Kamber


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Come on guys - what is this about always locking-down negative threads?

In my mind it's not "negative threads" but "boring threads" that keep going over and over the same thing. Combine 'em or junk 'em, I say.

 

Oh, and by the way, I don't own an M8, nor will I.

Damn! Andy, there goes my respect. Here I thought you were honest, feeling and respectful, and now I learn you haven't suffered my sorrows, my turmoils, my joys. How can I ever listen to you again? :p

 

Make no mistake - Leica know exactly what the issues are with the M8 and are doing something about them. How could they NOT know? You should have been in Hessenpark on Friday, when you could have heard Herr Daniel speak with us on this very subject ;)

Any discussion elsewhere, German forum perhaps?

 

There's no doubt in my mind that Leica's at work on the M8's lovable little personality oddities. That's why it's so annoying to hear people say that Leica doesn't care and isn't doing anything about it. Remember how long we suffered with erratic AWB? (Oh, drat, that's back on Kamber's topic again.;)) And now the M8's AWB is about as good as it gets.

 

Seriously, I'd like to know anything Stefan had to say about the future, but everything with Leica takes time.

 

And that's why I say combine or kill. We're getting nowhere here. :mad:

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There are 250 people in Solms in R&D. Half the workforce.

 

If they were all sitting there on their thumbs (their OWN thumbs, not their neighbours...), they'd be down the road by now.

 

The audience with Stefan Daniels was about 92% German, 2% Swiss, 2% Norwegian, 2% Dutch. Robert Parker (who speaks German). And me.

 

So, I suspect that somewhere on the German section, someone will talk :)

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They told me that the M9 is coming in September. It will have a larger than full frame sensor, cost only €1,000, and will be made in South Africa.

And doubtless require a new, yet-to-be-invented UV/IR filter for the extended frame size?

 

It'll use the cloth M shutter?

 

Be available in any of eight colors of leather?

 

And it'll have only a slightly limited range of acceptable focal lengths? Nothing faster than f/4, nothing shorter than 35mm, nothing made before 2002?

 

Will require a certification procedure for each lens to be used, sending the lens to the distributor for an extra zebra stripe code?

 

Sounds like a winner! :) What the M8 should have been in the first place!

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The audience with Stefan Daniels was about 92% German, 2% Swiss, 2% Norwegian, 2% Dutch. Robert Parker (who speaks German). And me.

 

So, I suspect that somewhere on the German section, someone will talk :)

 

Is that the Robert Parker from Somerset that speaks fluent English as well ??

 

Surely he translated the key points for you Andy ?

 

Presumably, this was not a closed session and therefore Mr Daniels anticipated the inside info being shared with the English speaking Forum members ?

 

Rolo

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He speaks fluent Zumerzet :)

 

(That's not true, actually :) )

 

It wasn't closed, nor did anyone sign anything or any other nonsense. So, what was told to us was very general, and nothing we probably didn't already know. It's what he didn't say that might be more interesting.

 

We have to wait for September (and November, IIRC..?)

 

It's probably better if a native German speaker, who also speaks English fills us in on what was said, but this thread isn't the right place, really.

 

We have already PM'd with my thoughts :)

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We have already PM'd with my thoughts :)

 

Andy,

 

Understand. Thought there was more coming for a mo.

 

As you know, I'm enthusiastic, positive and keenly interested in M8 product updates, as hundreds of other Forum members are.

 

Rolo :)

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In my mind it's not "negative threads" but "boring threads" that keep going over and over the same thing. Combine 'em or junk 'em, I say.

 

But with all due respect, why should you be the arbiter of what's "boring"? There are endless threads on the forum where people discuss rounding errors in the mathematical formulae for determining f-stops. With that perspective, my only possible conclusion for wanting to shut down critical threads is censorship.

 

Anyway, time for me to get ready for the forthcoming week's work. Enjoy yourselves.

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So, there you have it. Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

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But with all due respect, why should you be the arbiter of what's "boring"? There are endless threads on the forum where people discuss rounding errors in the mathematical formulae for determining f-stops. With that perspective, my only possible conclusion for wanting to shut down critical threads is censorship.

 

plasticman--

Rather cheap response, wouldn't you say?

1) I said "In my mind...," stating an opinion and not asking to be an arbiter.

2) In the thread you're referring to, there was no repetition of the same point again and again. Each element built on the previous one; new information came out of it. And the section of the thread you're complaining about had only 13 posts.

3) Andy has already answered you in regard to your 'censorship' charge.

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I also want to say thanks to Michael.

 

For me real Photographer´s test counts more than the tests of LEICA collectors or people who take pictures of their grandchildren.

 

s.m.e.p. yor personal bias and ignorance is showing here, if indeed you do judge photographers of grandchildren as NOT real photographers. I for one DO photograph grandchildren and could take personal exception to that remark, but prefer to maintain my composure.

 

I will challenge you, or any other wannabe photographer to a 'shooting duel' anytime and will comfortably equit myself in any 'shooting gallery' under just about any conditions. I have done it many many times, and still do. In the past, I employed only photographers who could demonstrate a consistent ability to turn in good work in the 'Domestic Sector' as I considered the skills and talents demanded and learned in that forum were invaluable in the 'Commercial Sector' but could not always be learned well enough there. I AM a successful commercial and general photographer and I do also photograph children and grandchildren. I rate that sector as one of the most demanding on the photographer. Yesterday I photographed my grandson's 5th birthday party, approx, 500 exp. (on an M8) and I AM proud of the results, photographically speaking. Probably less than 5% were of my grandson. I did carefully document other children, their parents, the locale, etc.

 

The M8, just to stay on topic, did 'glitch' on me, Twice I managed to inadvertently move the selector switch to 'timer' and missedd to shots. I have always been aware of this, and other problems, but still declare the camera as the best for "what I do and want to do." However I have no illusons about it its well documented problems. I live and work with them.

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... Twice I managed to inadvertently move the selector switch to 'timer' and missedd to shots...

 

Why can't the timer simply be de-activated via the menu? You can set the length of timer delay, why not have a setting so the timer position actually is another S or C? In this position the back buttons could be locked also. Two potential problems could be solved with a simple firmware alteration.

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Erl--

Just FYI, when I recently sent my M8 to Leica Allendale for a couple snags, it came back with a tightened On/S/C/T switch. I hadn't asked that it be tightened and was surprised and delighted when they took care of that. Good service, I say, from a company that knows the needs of its customers.

 

So my guess is that if you send your camera in future for anything, Leica will likely take care of the uglies without being asked.

 

Another thing they did without being asked was fix the gritty action of the shutter release. I could live with both the problems, but Leica put them into first-class shape.

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Man....again?

 

Crazy...

 

Some thoughts:

 

1. At this point, unless you pony up the $1,000 U.S. for a quieter shutter and advance system, the M8 is now at this point all it can possibly be. I doubt the upgrades will continue much past maybe one more set.

 

2. Some pros like my self can only take maybe one camera or lens into certain situations to shoot, it just simply happens sometimes. So with that said, out of all the cameras I have ever used, the M8 is the only one I would leave behind if I could not bring a backup. It's just too risky, way too much so actually.

 

3. Leica knows that if the next version of the digital M is bug ridden like the M8, the camera division is pretty much "focked" and that will not be a good thing. So Leica is not going to rush the next camera like they did with the M8...and they did rush it according to significant sources.

 

4. I know of a few well regarded pros that use the M8, but never without a non-M8 backup on real assignments. So in other words, they do like I do and use the M8 and a couple lenses along with a proven SLR system. This is not ideal, but is much better than a total loss of reputation due to negligence on assignment.

 

5. Most of the ads for Leica in the pro arena are high end social documentary and journalism photographers, sorry for those of you who are not, you do matter, but Leica made it's name with the likes of Magnum and those who do that kind of work. So they can not expect to keep the most important part of their heritage and reputation intact in selling flakey cameras.

 

I like my M8 a lot, but I like my film M's a lot better. So since it is still very easy to shoot film, that is what I shoot with Leica and not only is it different in operation, but it is different in results too.

 

So really, the bottom line is that there is now plenty of info out there on the strengths and weaknesses of the M8 so I don't really know how much is to be gained from discussions like this when it is widely known that Leica is working their butts off to get a better digital M in the market.

 

My only concern for this is that the M8 will suffer a HUGE loss in trade in worth when the new and most likely vastly better digital M hits the market in two years at the most. So I try to use it and make money with it because if an M9 comes out, is $7,000 and makes my then brassed and scuffed M8 worth about $600-$1,100, I will most likely never buy another Leica digital product ever again.

 

My 2 cents..

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sure its one sided, but he does make a lot of fairly straight forward points. for example, fully agree with this one:

 

"Speeds in finder: When shooting on manual speeds, the shutter speeds do not show in the viewfinder. This is a problem when shooting at dusk in fast-moving situations. I need to know if I am shooting at a 1/30 or an 1/4 so I can judge blur and sharpness. With the M8, you can take your eye away from the finder and try to check the speed on top."

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My only concern for this is that the M8 will suffer a HUGE loss in trade in worth when the new and most likely vastly better digital M hits the market in two years at the most. So I try to use it and make money with it because if an M9 comes out, is $7,000 and makes my then brassed and scuffed M8 worth about $600-$1,100, I will most likely never buy another Leica digital product ever again.

 

My 2 cents..

 

I suggest you could easily leave the word Leica off the digital product. I do not know of one digital product you would buy again...;)

 

Anyway, I think the boot is on the other foot. Haven spoken with many hard-core Leica users this weekend, only very few would replace their M8 were the M9 simply an improved M8. The camera is, after all, better than most of us are as photographers. Of course high-profile pros and other celebs are good for marketing, but the money comes from the main customer group which is the engaged and accomplished photographer with a well-paid main job and high education.(no snobbishness intended!) So Leica really needs to design the hypothetical M9 with new customer groups in mind for it to be a commercial succes. And then a release would not generate many M8 sales, keeping the used prices in an acceptable range, I think.

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Twice I managed to inadvertently move the selector switch to 'timer'

 

Funny, but I have the same problem in the car. On odd occasions I shift from 4th to 5th and end up in third. Although I know where 5th is I still do it (every so often). Now there are some who might suggest that this is inattention to gear shifting but I actually blame the car manufacturers (who will remain nameless or their sales might plummet) who build gearboxes with selector gates far too close together for allowing such things to happen. Design flaws it appears, are everywhere!

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