stunsworth Posted June 17, 2008 Share #321 Posted June 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh come on Steve - which particular characteristics of a flak jacket are the ones that inadvertently trigger the buttons on the back of the M8, as opposed to any other garment? Never having worn a flak jacket I'm guessing here, but I'd assume from its role that it would have a fairly rigid surface and if the camera slaps against a hard surface that may cause the slightly raised buttons to be pressed in a way that soft fabric wouldn't. I imagine people using M8 while jousting in suits of armour have similar problems for the same reason - which is probably why the camera hasn't really taken off in the historical re-enactment community. It requires certain co-ordinated presses of the button - set, set, dial, set - and I agree that there probably is nothing specific about a flak jacket that would cause this sequance to be pressed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 17, 2008 Posted June 17, 2008 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here M8 Iraq field test - ouch.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
fotografr Posted June 17, 2008 Share #322 Posted June 17, 2008 Never having worn a flak jacket I'm guessing here, but I'd assume from its role that it would have a fairly rigid surface and if the camera slaps against a hard surface that may cause the slightly raised buttons to be pressed in a way that soft fabric wouldn't. I imagine people using M8 while jousting in suits of armour have similar problems for the same reason - which is probably why the camera hasn't really taken off in the historical re-enactment community. It requires certain co-ordinated presses of the button - set, set, dial, set - and I agree that there probably is nothing specific about a flak jacket that would cause this sequance to be pressed. That's exactly the cause, Steve. Imagine wearing a plywood sandwich board with your M8 banging against the thing while hanging from your neckstrap, and you get the idea. The other part of the cause is having the camera auto-off function disabled. With the camera always on and at the ready, banging the buttons against a hard surface can change the settings. The M8 is hardly the only camera susceptible to this kind of thing--but I doubt there are many of us who would ever be affected by it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 17, 2008 Share #323 Posted June 17, 2008 Well everything that Mr Kamber touched on has been an issue for me (some more, some less) so I guess there is a universal truth to it - at least for the universe he and I exist in (and I've never been anywhere near a war zone thank god). Somebody mentioned the M8 as being the most responsive camera out there. Have you tried a D3? Not only is the shutter release faster and smoother, one doesn't need to double push to "wake" the camera up, thereby not missing shots because the camera was asleep. It has instant wakeup which the lack of I see as one of the biggest flaws on the M8. Don't get me wrong - I think the M8 is one of a kind and takes fantastic pictures, though it's most definitely flawed. Lets just hope Leica are paying attention and get it right the next go around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 17, 2008 Share #324 Posted June 17, 2008 And most of the issues he raised had been discussed ad nausium 18 months ago. Some have been fixed with software or hardware changes, others haven't. If the ones that haven't are showstoppers for some one then in all seriousness they should consider a different camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 17, 2008 Share #325 Posted June 17, 2008 And most of the issues he raised had been discussed ad nausium 18 months ago. Some have been fixed with software or hardware changes, others haven't. If the ones that haven't are showstoppers for some one then in all seriousness they should consider a different camera. I honestly do not understand this repetitive response to reviews of the camera - we certainly don't hear it if the review is positive. The way I read Kamber's review is as a heartfelt appeal to Leica to really come to grips with the M8's shortcomings, and at the very least give the next incarnation of the M a proper field-testing, so that what emerges is a truly robust and responsive camera that can really withstand any conditions that might be thrown at it. btw that stuff about the suits of armor and the plywood is really funny. Flak jackets or plywood clothes - all the same thing really. No really - very, very funny. Why on earth should anyone ever wear a stupid flak jacket when they're using a camera? - when you think about it, it's totally absurd. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 17, 2008 Share #326 Posted June 17, 2008 Why on earth should anyone ever wear a stupid flak jacket when they're using a camera? - when you think about it, it's totally absurd. Do I detect an attempt at sarcasm? The point is of course that the vast majority of people don't wear flack jackets, for those that do he made a very valid point, and one that I don't think has been discussed before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 17, 2008 Share #327 Posted June 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Do I detect an attempt at sarcasm? The point is of course that the vast majority of people don't wear flack jackets, for those that do he made a very valid point, and one that I don't think has been discussed before. So of all the points he made in the exhaustive and thorough review, the one you think is valid is that people in flak jackets (alternatively suits of armor) should not use the M8. Everything else was either not valid or already fixed. Hmmm well I guess the thread can be closed down, after all. And only reopened for off-duty war correspondents or time-travelling knights with an interest in jousting and street photography. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted June 17, 2008 Share #328 Posted June 17, 2008 and responsive camera that can really withstand any conditions that might be thrown at it. I dont need this. I need it to perform under normal conditions, which to my mind it already does. If Leica decides to make a war photographer's version, thats a different niche. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted June 17, 2008 Share #329 Posted June 17, 2008 Why on earth should anyone ever wear a stupid flak jacket when they're using a camera? - when you think about it, it's totally absurd. Perhaps, but you never know when you might have to be out and about with your M8 while wearing that sandwich board. I just wish Leica had field tested the M8 with the sandwich board folks. What an oversight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2008 Share #330 Posted June 17, 2008 Why on earth should anyone ever wear a stupid flak jacket when they're using a camera? - when you think about it, it's totally absurd. It is not the wearing that is absurd, it is the circumstances that neccessitate it that are absurd...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 17, 2008 Share #331 Posted June 17, 2008 So of all the points he made in the exhaustive and thorough review, the one you think is valid is that people in flak jackets (alternatively suits of armor) should not use the M8. No not at all, all I was saying was that that was the only one that we weren't aware of before his review. his other points were valid, some have been fixed, others not. These have been in the public domain for a long time, it's up to the individual photographer to decide their importance. For some it will make the camera unusable, for others they are issues that can be worked around. I place myself in the later category. Remember he bought the camera after having one on loan from Leica, when I bought mine I was fully aware of the issues and decided that they were not show stoppers. No need to close the thread down, it hasn't resorted to personal insults and will die a natural death when the time is right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted June 17, 2008 Share #332 Posted June 17, 2008 Perhaps, but you never know when you might have to be out and about with your M8 while wearing that sandwich board. I just wish Leica had field tested the M8 with the sandwich board folks. What an oversight. As I have posted before, the 'set' button in particular is activated rather easily- you do not need a flak jacket , sandwich board etc. Perhaps it was my abs ? - I just wish that Leica had field tested period. While certain issues were resolved. Leica should perhaps move a little ( or a lot ) quicker to resolve other software issues that still remain (4gb cards) . The hardware issues we have to live with. Yes it is a good camera, yes the images a great - but this is more a results of the optics. But in the final analysis Leica made some unforgivable mistakes ( no need to restate them). Let us hope that Leica takes these critiques and produces a better M-9 . Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 17, 2008 Share #333 Posted June 17, 2008 I bought mine in March 2007 with the wishful thinking I wouldn't have any problems. "Geez I own eight M8's and none of mine have any issues. Must be your eyes or your memory card." Well, straight out of the box it was a lemon. And then the replacement ended up having to go back to Solms for repair as well. I think a lot of working pros hoped that the M8 would be as well built and functioning (better actually) than their film M's. Unfortunately not the case. Kamber's piece was written for those that make their living off of cameras. It was targeted at the Lightstalkers crowd, not the Leica forum crowd. A lot of his colleagues were probably aware of issues, but not ad naseum. They don't hang out on forums (and I often ask myself what the hell I'm doing here. A weird addiction...). Anyway, the camera works great for most things, but not high stress situations where that one image could make the difference between a Pulitzer or not. "Wait a minute please while I remove and re-insert the battery." I shot over 12,000 images with my M8 last year (among other cameras) and that despite it being in the hands of Solms a couple of those months. It takes very nice pictures. It also involved enormous amounts of patience and frustration to just get it to work right. My D3 has been fine right of the box. No sharpies, no filters, no extra this or that, no two month service trips, and so on. It's definitely a love/hate relationship with the M8. And I wouldn't recommend the camera to anyone unless they are ready and willing to deal with it's potential problems and have the finances/time to do so. It takes great pics, but really for most people a 5D or D300 is just fine. I actually miss shooting with my M7 (though I do now and then). I just don't miss the film/processing/trips to the lab costs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 17, 2008 Share #334 Posted June 17, 2008 I dont need this. I need it to perform under normal conditions, which to my mind it already does. If Leica decides to make a war photographer's version, thats a different niche. Well to be quite accurate about this review - and this is really a critical point that people keep trying to gloss over - other than the flak jacket (and Steve's Knights of the Round Table of course) the particular circumstances which Kamber finds problematic are no way restricted to a war zone. The camera certainly doesn't need to take a bullet for the rest of us - but the criticism certainly applies to normal use. If it's not too late in development, I actually think this review may have greater influence on the R&D department in Solms in their work on the M9 than pretty much anything else we've seen the last year. I think all of us who are interested in how that camera turns out - whether we use it running across a street under fire or while dodging balloons at our kid's birthday party - should be grateful to Kamber for writing it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 17, 2008 Share #335 Posted June 17, 2008 Plasticman, Maybe we should stick to the points that are actually raised in the review or whatever we want to call it? About 10 pages or so ago I gave my opinion on the horrrible deficiencies he claims to have discovered in the M8. I do not recall seeing any major objections to that analysis exept the rather technical aspects of Depth of View and the universal desire for a wide angle fast lens. However my main objection to his review is: sure the M8 might have been (even) better but not in its first incarnation and without our feedback. His report implicitly suggests that the M8 is of no use whatsoever for anyone exept for taking bright daylight snaphots and even then requiring the use of some postprocessing - we all know that this is NOT true by any standards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted June 17, 2008 Share #336 Posted June 17, 2008 I think all of us who are interested in how that camera turns out - whether we use it running across a street under fire or while dodging balloons at our kid's birthday party - should be grateful to Kamber for writing it. Completely agree Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted June 17, 2008 Share #337 Posted June 17, 2008 ... Somebody mentioned the M8 as being the most responsive camera out there. Have you tried a D3? Not only is the shutter release faster and smoother, one doesn't need to double push to "wake" the camera up, thereby not missing shots because the camera was asleep. ... I believe Leica has said that double-press is sign of a misadjustment and can and should be eliminated. Correct me if I'm wrong. ... These and the thousands of other images that came out of Vietnam dramatically altered public opinion and moved people in this country and others out of their living rooms and dorm rooms into the streets. The end result was a shortening of the conflict, ... On the mark, Brent. Thanks for the vivid memory. Add to the list the nightly TV news. The current US administration also knows you're right. They have forbidden photographing flag-draped coffins and as someone said above, co-opted the media by claiming to put them 'in the action' through embedding. It's all calculated to hide the facts from the taxpayers. Thanks for the reminder of that war my generation naively thought would be a reminder to our military and politicians to avoid such groundless conflicts in future. As I have posted before, the 'set' button in particular is activated rather easily ... Right again, Peter. There was one case pointed out on the forum early on of an M8 user noticing that the LCD screen was showing "Do you want to format the SD-card?", and the "Yes" field was selected. He wasn't wearing a flak jacket, just out shooting; one bump of the "SET" button would have formatted the card. If you look at it logically ('well, you would have to press these buttons in this sequence...') it may not seem likely. But the buttons are easily accessible. Part of the problem also arises from the fact that the M8 has a simple and shallow menu system. We all prefer that to the multi-layered structure of some other cameras' menus. But that also means that 'bad' events are closer to the surface. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 17, 2008 Share #338 Posted June 17, 2008 I believe Leica has said that double-press is sign of a misadjustment and can and should be eliminated. Correct me if I'm wrong. Ughh. Which would mean another two month trip to La La land for something they should have caught last time (or better yet when it was made/designed). Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing: after the camera has fallen asleep (power switch is still on S or C) if I go and press the button to take a pic nothing happens until it wakes up and I press again. Isn't this the way it was designed or do I really have a problem? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted June 17, 2008 Share #339 Posted June 17, 2008 If the camera is asleep and you press the shutter button fully down very quickly then it just 'wakes up' and does not fire the shutter. If you press the shutter with a slight hesitation at the first 'stop' and then continue it will wake up and the shutter fires. On my Canon 5D pressing the shutter quickly fully down does both wake the camera and fire the shutter but the lens does not autofocus within this short time. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 17, 2008 Share #340 Posted June 17, 2008 Of course not. The point I'm trying to make is that he was using the wrong camera because it didn't fit _his_ needs in the particular situation he found himself in. Let's be honest, there aren't too many of us that ned to take the wearing of a flak jacket into account when choosing a camera. I think he only found out it was the "wrong" camera after he tried using it in comparison with his other cameras which worked better. As for the flak jacket - he posted a photo of it. I'd supect the raised pockets and straps are the culprits, not whether it is soft or hard. Perhaps these items are somewhat stiff. But I bet there could be similar issues with photo vests, and other clothing with raised pockets or other features such as one of my ski jackets, my safety harness, emergency floation devices (the kind you wear in a helicopter over water,) and perhaps even some sport coats and other "not so unusual clothing." By the time that Leica designed the M8 they had plenty of time to study various solutions that other manufacturers had emploed. So why is it that they didn't see that other cameras have resessed buttons? At one time the switches on Canon lenses could be moved inadvertinetly when you slid the lens into or out of a camera bag. Or accidentally when shooting with it. So Canon resessed the switches and solved the problem. Since it would be so easy for Leica to fix this issue, let's see how long it takes them to do so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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