Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jack MacDonough

M8 in Economist

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I know Porsche Consult a bit. They are cooking with the same water as all the other consultants: they are consulting any (!) business, sending their juniors and seniors into companies, redesigning basically all processes,and wondering, why things are not put into practise...

 

Let us be clear: Leica finally needs the right management. Hopefully the Kaufmann-team will turn the business around. They are recruiting a lot right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahaha, yes the managers will run off with the proceeds over there, just as much as managers do over here. I don't think there's a better place in the world to be in corporate management than in the US.

 

What Leica really needs is some serious help from other companies with their sensor technology and their electronics. Why not work with as company like Oakley (Red One sensor) or Dalsa and get us a low noise high res. sensor produced that can stand up to Nikon and Canon. And use some of the huge amounts of money we are paying for their products to use high quality circuitry that doesn't fail.

 

I love my M8 and use it almost every day professionally. I love the design, the size, the build quality of the body and lenses etc. However, it does bother me that I have to shoot my high quality lenses wide open in low light and at low shutter speeds and risk motion blur of moving subjects and deal with shallow depth of field when I look at a huge printout made from a Nikon D3 file, shot at ISO 32000 that looks like an ISO 640 file from my M8.

 

Guys, I could care less about full-frame. I got used to my new focal length conversion. But please, give me a noiseless sensor like the D3's as an upgrade option, and I will send you my Christmas bonus!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But please, give me a noiseless sensor like the D3's as an upgrade option, and I will send you my Christmas bonus!

 

Leca M8 ISO 2500, F8, 1/250 sec. What's the problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I love the design, the size, the build quality of the body and lenses etc. However, it does bother me that I have to shoot my high quality lenses wide open in low light and at low shutter speeds and risk motion blur of moving subjects and deal with shallow depth of field when I look at a huge printout made from a Nikon D3 file, shot at ISO 32000 that looks like an ISO 640 file from my M8.

 

Guys, I could care less about full-frame. I got used to my new focal length conversion. But please, give me a noiseless sensor like the D3's as an upgrade option, and I will send you my Christmas bonus!

 

Couldn't agree more... That's exactly how I feel. I'm even prepared to leave the IR-cut filters on my lenses.

 

I guess everyone understands the trade-offs involved in using a cropped sensor for a digital M given the technologies currently available. However, high-ISO sensor performance is something that should be addressable... although it may be more economically viable to do this in a new M8-II body, as opposed to upgrading the current M8.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hahaha, yes the managers will run off with the proceeds over there, just as much as managers do over here. I don't think there's a better place in the world to be in corporate management than in the US.

 

What Leica really needs is some serious help from other companies with their sensor technology and their electronics. Why not work with as company like Oakley (Red One sensor) or Dalsa and get us a low noise high res. sensor produced that can stand up to Nikon and Canon. And use some of the huge amounts of money we are paying for their products to use high quality circuitry that doesn't fail.

 

I love my M8 and use it almost every day professionally. I love the design, the size, the build quality of the body and lenses etc. However, it does bother me that I have to shoot my high quality lenses wide open in low light and at low shutter speeds and risk motion blur of moving subjects and deal with shallow depth of field when I look at a huge printout made from a Nikon D3 file, shot at ISO 32000 that looks like an ISO 640 file from my M8.

 

Guys, I could care less about full-frame. I got used to my new focal length conversion. But please, give me a noiseless sensor like the D3's as an upgrade option, and I will send you my Christmas bonus!

 

This is Kaufmann's answer:

 

PopPhoto: In testing the Leica M8, I found its performance to be outstanding at ISO 320 and very good at ISO 640, but with noticeable noise at ISO 1250. Many late-model DSLRs from other leading makers now claim to deliver topnotch performance in the ISO 1600-3200 range. Will Leica do anything to provide enhanced performance at higher ISOs in a future M model?

 

Kaufmann: The fundamental concept of the Leica M is delivering the pure image captured by the lens, and this is not possible if you adopt the philosophy of using extensive software to massage an imperfect image. When you take such images and drill down into them, you may find certain things you don't like. We are committed to enhancing the performance of all Leica cameras at higher ISOs, but we will do so very gradually.

 

The Future of Leica - - PopPhotoMay 2008

 

I cannot agree with Kaufmann... Last generation CMOS sensors' low noise isn't due to software alone. In any case, you are forced to apply some noise reduction software to the noisy M8 files (at ISO 1250 and 2500) during postprocessing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot agree with Kaufmann... Last generation CMOS sensors' low noise isn't due to software alone. In any case, you are forced to apply some noise reduction software to the noisy M8 files (at ISO 1250 and 2500) during postprocessing...

 

Leica may have to rethink this at some point as the M8 will look rather out-dated before long (even compared to much cheaper consumer DSLRs) if it doesn't periodically get updated with better sensors, electronics, and more features (e.g. live view.) Some who might have purchased an M8 1 1/2 years ago would not buy one today because quite a few newer and improved DSLRs have come out since then.

 

In my opinion, the main thing keeping the M8 going is that it has no competition in the digital rangefinder field. (Particularly helpful is its ability to use existing M lenses.) But place the M8's current feature-set and performance in a DSLR, charge $8000 for it with a 35 f2 "normal" lens, and see how well it fares in the marketplace.

 

The corner that the M8 has on its niche market will only take it so far and last so long. I really have no idea if that is enough to keep the company going. Maybe the consultants at Porsche know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I heard that Mr. Kaufmann is a very reasonable man. I sincerely hope that he doesn't believe what he is saying about other camera's high ISO capabilities being purely software driven. It is simply not true.

 

I believe we all have to let him know that a sensor with better high ISO performance is what we want. I do believe that a full-frame sensor may not be feasible in the M8 body, but a newer and better sensor? Come on, enough with the excuses. I have been supporting this company for a long time now. Let's get top work again and stop resting on the M8 laurels. Shouldn't it be much easier at this point to improve on something that exists than develop a new camera in the first place? I'm really just waiting to buy a second one in silver, but it has to be a significant upgrade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hahaha, yes the managers will run off with the proceeds over there, just as much as managers do over here. I don't think there's a better place in the world to be in corporate management than in the US.

 

What Leica really needs is some serious help from other companies with their sensor technology and their electronics. Why not work with as company like Oakley (Red One sensor) or Dalsa and get us a low noise high res. sensor produced that can stand up to Nikon and Canon. And use some of the huge amounts of money we are paying for their products to use high quality circuitry that doesn't fail.

 

I love my M8 and use it almost every day professionally. I love the design, the size, the build quality of the body and lenses etc. However, it does bother me that I have to shoot my high quality lenses wide open in low light and at low shutter speeds and risk motion blur of moving subjects and deal with shallow depth of field when I look at a huge printout made from a Nikon D3 file, shot at ISO 32000 that looks like an ISO 640 file from my M8.

 

Guys, I could care less about full-frame. I got used to my new focal length conversion. But please, give me a noiseless sensor like the D3's as an upgrade option, and I will send you my Christmas bonus!

 

 

I think you brought it to the point: if M8 owners had ONE wish, they should/would probably go for a better sensor, even SAME format. I would underline, that probably all of us got used to this 1,33-issue. Given the M8 body price, a sensor with latest technology should be offered. In consequence I also think, that Leica should offer an upgrade package. You are absolutely right, it is not at all about full frame, not even about these bloody IR filters.

 

And - they should give priority to a sensor upgrade package, compared with the present upgrade package, which is nice but not vital.

 

If they do not do so M8lers will be stuck tomorrow morning with a very expensive antiquity.....

 

Leica has absolutely no experience with these short product life cycles that characterise the digital world, what means, yes, they need a strong cooperation partner with regard to digital technology. This would allow them to concentrate on their core competence: lenses...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...And - they should give priority to a sensor upgrade package, compared with the present upgrade package, which is nice but not vital.

 

If they do not do so M8lers will be stuck tomorrow morning with a very expensive antiquity.....

 

Leica has absolutely no experience with these short product life cycles that characterise the digital world, what means, yes, they need a strong cooperation partner with regard to digital technology. This would allow them to concentrate on their core competence: lenses...

 

I couldn't agree more, so let's hope that the good Dr. Kaufmann's is reading this one with interest! I was very disappointed when he decided to water down the "future proof" M8 program. So many people bitched and moaned about the initial release of the update, he may have decided it wasn’t worth it. Who knows, perhaps if enough of us jump on the current update, maybe he’ll reconsider the M8’s continued value to his company.

Regards,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I plan to invest in the quiet shutter as an upgrade having read Sean Reid's review and am currently undecided about the screen.

I would guess a greatly improved sensor of one sort or another will available in the next year or so and plan to invest in that also when it comes out wether it is full frame or the existing size (assuming it is made available as an upgrade).

Having invested in UV/IR filters I am quite comfortable using them with minimal complaint now.

The results I'm getting are wonderful to me at least! I hope enough people feel the same way that Leica develop the program - no point if there are no sales I guess.

I look forward to having great fun using this camera for a considerable time in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm struck by the sense of you all wishing for a better sensor and commenting on the short life cycles inherent in digital cameras. The two are very much linked IMO, which begs the question "in the absence of another digital rangefinder manufacturer, is it Leica who will ultimately decide the length of the life cycle or you the user voting with your feet?.

 

I for one am very happy with results up to 640 and given film's grain accept what is available above 640 when I use C1 to process. It begs the question in my mind "when will everyone be happy?. Will it be a case of shooting portraits by candle light at 64000 iso at 1/250 at f:/5.6. I think people have let the technology advances both present and future developments in sensors cloud the judgements or basic principals of photography.

 

For me, it's rather simple, I'm no pro photographer, I don't have to put the bacon on the table relying on the M8 for the money shot. I just use it as a tool to take memorable photographs of scenes, places and people who are important in my life. I find the M8 a challenging camera to use in the sense that I rely on my own abilities and photographic knowledge to get me there. As a tool the M8 was fantastic in 2006, that's still the case today and no doubt it'll still be the case in 2 years time. I continue to derive lots of personal satisfaction exploring my limits and searching for that "perfect light". Searching for the perfect sensor is futile IMO as there will always be a better one down the road to keep you on the digital gravy train.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What the European camera producers - Leica, Hasselblad etc. need is government support. Like their Japanese competitors are enjoying. The European Union subsidizes the agricultural - mainly the alcohol industry. Had Hasselblad and Leica been wine or brandy brands they would not had been in trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps we should remember that it was the manufacture “Leica” who not only proposed the perpetual upgrade, but also made it public. I see no reason why owners of this “tool” would not be happy to see it further development as Leica envisioned.

Regards,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also am happy with what the M8 delivers at ISO320 and if exposure is dead on ISO 640. However, the question when everyone will be satisfied is a different one. As for myself, I will be satisfied when the company whose brand I support continues to do everything in their powers to keep up with the times and make their product the best it can be. The high ISO performance can be improved and if I was the consultant, it would be a high priority.

 

I do shoot a lot in low light, and if my future pictures can have a little less motion-blur and a little more depth of field simply because of new technology available, then I'll take it. I want the best image quality possible, and obviously I'm willing to pay a premium for it.

 

No criticism of Leica, just my encouragement to keep it up. No excuses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps we should remember that it was the manufacture “Leica” who not only proposed the perpetual upgrade, but also made it public. I see no reason why owners of this “tool” would not be happy to see it further development as Leica envisioned.

Regards,

 

I thought it was the ex CEO and he got fired for his ideas. I think we can forget about this upgrade plan. And I think the M9 is now a few years away.

 

This year, Leica will give us a fast wide angle (24 Summicron?) and probably something else in the 16-18 range. We might also see a CL this year. Anything else will have to wait till there is more money in the bank.

 

Face it ladies and gentlemen, there is just not enough of us buying these toys to drive this company profitably into giving us what we want. It could be generational. Most of us seem to be 50 plus. For Leica to prosper they need to attract the 20 to 40 set. Mercedes did this with the C class, so it can be done.

 

My .02

 

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somehow, the 20-40 year-old market and the cost of a fast 24-cron or wider, will likely require some pretty wealthy young folks entering the Leica fold. Oh well, I can hardly wait!

Regards,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thought it was the ex CEO and he got fired for his ideas. I think we can forget about this upgrade plan. And I think the M9 is now a few years away.

 

This year, Leica will give us a fast wide angle (24 Summicron?) and probably something else in the 16-18 range. We might also see a CL this year. Anything else will have to wait till there is more money in the bank.

 

Face it ladies and gentlemen, there is just not enough of us buying these toys to drive this company profitably into giving us what we want. It could be generational. Most of us seem to be 50 plus. For Leica to prosper they need to attract the 20 to 40 set. Mercedes did this with the C class, so it can be done.

 

My .02

 

Tom

 

Tom , the 20-30 set will buy a car for this money rather than a M-Leica. You are dreaming. ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think about it. If Leica offers a new sensor as an upgrade for say $2,000 every other year, a lot of people will buy it. This is an investment that changes the performance of every single one of our precious lenses. For Leica, this would mean a significant markup of another vendor's product with very little work or cost for R&D. Seems like a goldmine to me. They're buying the current chips anyway, and they have the means of installing it, so why not offer it.

 

If a new chip made ISO640 look like 320, then you've just effectively turned your 21 2.8 into a 28 T2, and your 24 2.8 into a 24 T4 etc. Wouldn't that be nice? Let's just keep bugging them about it, maybe they'll listen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and the C-class of Leica in my opinion is the DLux 3 - a great little camera that so far three or four of my friends bought following my recommendation. Of course one of them bought the Lexus made by Panasonic;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tom , the 20-30 set will buy a car for this money rather than a M-Leica. You are dreaming. ..

 

You probably right. My 30ish doctor son-in-law has no problem spending thousands on mountain bikes and cars but a camera over $1,000 requires more thought. Quality in an electronic toy means nothing.

 

What I was getting at is most of us who were going to buy a M8 already did. Now Leica's sales are dipping. The old CEO thought that an upgrade program would work. Now that he is gone, Leica is trying to distance themselves from that program.

 

Their 2008 solution is a fast wide angle lens and something more in the wide angle area. These solutions are aimed at the Leica faithful. They (Leica) know we want a full frame, high rez camera, but they are not ready with one and are not even sure it is possible.

 

I'm referring to:

Kaufmann: "We definitely will expand and enhance the Leica M lens line in the near future and there will be some very exciting things shown at the Photokina exposition in Cologne this fall. We will make more detailed announcements on this later this summer, but for the time being all I can tell you is what you already know -- high performance wide-angle and ultra speed lenses are a longstanding Leica tradition, and we have been expanding our M line with lenses delivering high performance at more moderate prices to extend the reach of the entire M system. Incidentally we will show something else significant for the M system at Photokina, not just lenses."

and:

"Basically we provide Leica M photographers with professional caliber low-light performance the traditional Leica way, with our outstanding line of f/2 Summicron and f/1.4 Summilux lenses and the f/1.0 Noctilux. And there will be more to come!"

and:

"It's an ambitions goal that will involve spending more than 30 million euros, which is a lot of money for a medium-sized company.

 

"We are also working on developing high-resolution products for the professional imaging market and we're rediscovering a few traditional product categories that Leica was famous for. To say that all this is challenging is an understatement, and things never roll out as rapidly as one would wish."

 

all quotes from: The Future of Leica - - PopPhotoMay 2008

 

They're trying to find solutions that work. Giving us the M8 was wonderful but I'm not sure that will be enough to keep Leica a viable camera company. They are going to need a cash cow. Something small, light and cheap. Yes, they have something already but you can buy it for less when it says Panisonic. That's not much of a solution.

 

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue., Read more about our Privacy Policy