M8 in Economist

[lxlim]

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Likewise, its my first rangefinder. Much thanks to Sean and Guy Mancuso and others for their hard work at making the M8 work in their fields.

[sean_reid]

Sean,

 

You are correct in your assessment that individuals are buying M8 as a first rangefinder experience. I am one of them. In addition, to the M8, 50Lux, 28Cron, 35lux, WATE,75Lux, CV50. Also please note that with your reviews, I have been able to make what I believe to be the best choices. I am pleased with the M8 and the Leica glass. Sean, thanks for your help.

 

Jet

 

Thanks Jet, glad to hear it.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[sean_reid]

I very much hope you're right and that there are a lot, rather than just a few. This would indeed be sweet music to Andreas Kaufmann and the Leica workforce.

 

It would also indicate that there are a significant number of photographers for whom the whole picture making experience is important--not just the end result. That's really what it comes down to for me. I'm not going to say my M8 puts out better quality images than I can get from my DSLR system. That is sometimes the case, sometimes not. But I will say that I enjoy using my M8 much more than any other digital camera I've ever picked up, and when I am enjoying the process that is generally when I do my best work.

 

I think that the percentage of M8 buyers who are fairly new to RF cameras is higher than many would have expected.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Likewise, its my first rangefinder. Much thanks to Sean and Guy Mancuso and others for their hard work at making the M8 work in their fields.

 

Thanks. Guy is a good example of this point. The DMR got him interested in Leicas and then the M8 became his first rangefinder camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Olsen]

I'm sure there are various results from the currency exchange values over the past 30 years or so. Leica has to consider that as they trade world wide. Are Leica, Nikon, and Canon lenses are more competitively priced in Europe? How come a Mercedes isn't 4 to 10 times the price of a comparable Lexus as are the camera lenses.

 

I don't know how to compare the changes in cameras because it is hard to know how much a factor it is to develop and manufacture the digital technlogy in them. Whereas lens production is a more straightforward process as concerns Leica. (It probably hasn't changed much for them over the years.)

 

I feel the $8000 price of the 1Ds is an anomally. So I don't look at it in comparison with other models. It is simply priced as high as the market can bear due to lack of competition. The Nikon D3 is similar but has to compete a little bit with the 1DMIII. What else are Nikon shooters going to turn to? Consider why a 21 meg FF sensor in place of a 10 meg 1.3x sensor should add $3500 to the selling price of an otherwise identical camera. The place to see the competitive market forces at work is in the lower priced models.

 

It doesn't really mater what the reason are. Canon and Nikon found ways to keep their prices down and Leica didn't. By the way, Canon lenses are priced about the same as they were 5 years ago.

 

Nikon and Canon (and Lexus) don't have to increase (compensate) their prices in dollars at the same rate as Leica (and Mercedes), - simply due to that the Yen hasn't increased towards the dollar as the same rate as the Euro. Further; Canon is the most profitable digital camera producer in the world. Their camera division had a 'operating profit' close to 80% of the total business's for several years. Their margins are far larger than (both Nikon's and) Leica's. Still Canon is now experiencing a flattening out of both camera sales and profit. - Due to unfavorable dollar development. - It hurts their bottom line to 'keep the prices' in dollars. Read their investors relations. A further fall of the dollar to the Yen just might force them to increase their prices too.

 

All European exporters dependent on the US market - or in competition with US producers, are in deep trouble due to the US$ fall. Companies ranging from Ferrari to Airbus. Their competitiveness have been reduced with 56% in 5 - 6 years. Indeed, by the largest part of the inflation you see domestically in USA is due to 'the fall of the US dollar'.

[Olsen]

What a nonsense! Now that you got some serious push backs in the RFF you seem to prefer trolling around in the Leica forum and spread your confused and immature economic wisdom.

 

Sure.

 

I am ready to listen to some 'mature economic advice' from you just any time. I can imagine that you pick up quite a few lessons on strong foreign currencies over there these days.

 

Off list, please.

[AlanG]

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I get the argument about Leica pricing in dollars for the US market. But why is Leica gear priced so much higher than Nikon and Canon in Europe too? Surely a Leica M8 and M lenses are still quite expensive items for Europeans.

 

I see the Canon 5D sells for 1919 Euros including VAT here:

 

https://www.isarfoto.com/cms.php/en/0/Home/Produkte/Alle_Produkte/DIGITAL/SLR_Systeme/CANON_Kameras.html

 

The 4D sells for $1900 at B&H in the U.S. That is quite a bit less even when you account for the VAT. (Maybe there are cheaper places to buy it in Europe.)

 

I see at another shop in Germany that a 35 f2 Summicron sells for 2195 Euros and a Canon 35 f2 sells for 269 Euros. So in Germany the Leica lens is 8.15 times the price.

 

At B&H they are $2595 and $240. In the US the Leica lens is 10.81 times the price.

[marknorton]

Thanks. Guy is a good example of this point. The DMR got him interested in Leicas and then the M8 became his first rangefinder camera.

 

I don't spend a lot of time on Guy's site, just lurking, but he seems to be moving away from the M8, at least for his professional work; 1 body and numerous lenses going or gone. Seems like MF is grabbing their attention over there.

[marknorton]

But why is Leica gear priced so much higher than Nikon and Canon in Europe too? Surely a Leica M8 and M lenses are still quite expensive items for Europeans.

 

They are indeed, and the fact that I bought both the Nikon 14-24 and 24-70 star performing zoom lenses for the same as I would now pay for a 35mm Summilux-M ASPH underscores just how expensive Leica lenses are.

 

If Leica lenses were dramatically over-priced, that would show up in Leica's profits; it doesn't, such profits as there are are few and far between. IMHO, it boils down to three things:

 

- Leica are less willing to compromise and eeking out that last ounce of performance costs; the Summarits are a different mix and show that Leica can deliver fine product at lower prices.

 

- Leica cannot achieve the same economies of scale that Nikon and Canon can; Nikon is 50 times the size of Leica and Canon is several times bigger than Nikon. One rule of thumb is that the cost of doing something halves for every 10-fold increase in the number of times you do it. Leica make 1000 M8's a month; Nikon make 600 D3s a day.

 

- Europe is expensive, period, due to higher taxation and lower productivity than elsewhere, ands there are precious few products of this type made here any more. The M8 is, by my reckoning, the lowest cost digital camera made in Europe and probably outside the Far East.

[Vieri]

- Europe is expensive, period, due to higher taxation and lower productivity than elsewhere, ands there are precious few products of this type made here any more. The M8 is, by my reckoning, the lowest cost digital camera made in Europe and probably outside the Far East.

 

Indeed Mark. I think the M8 is the first and ONLY digital camera made in Europe, actually. I might be wrong, but I don't recall any production camera coming from the EU.

[stunsworth]

Indeed Mark. I think the M8 is the first and ONLY digital camera made in Europe, actually. I might be wrong, but I don't recall any production camera coming from the EU.

 

R9/DMR?

[Vieri]

R9/DMR?

 

Technically, the R9 is by design a film camera, and the DMR a digital back adaptable to the R8/R9 - neither is a digital camera designed and produced as such, so to speak.

[leitz_not_leica]

CH is not in the EU, but:

 

Seitz Phototechnik AG - Seitz 6x17

[Olsen]

They are indeed, and the fact that I bought both the Nikon 14-24 and 24-70 star performing zoom lenses for the same as I would now pay for a 35mm Summilux-M ASPH underscores just how expensive Leica lenses are.

 

If Leica lenses were dramatically over-priced, that would show up in Leica's profits; it doesn't, such profits as there are are few and far between. IMHO, it boils down to three things:

 

- Leica are less willing to compromise and eeking out that last ounce of performance costs; the Summarits are a different mix and show that Leica can deliver fine product at lower prices.

 

- Leica cannot achieve the same economies of scale that Nikon and Canon can; Nikon is 50 times the size of Leica and Canon is several times bigger than Nikon. One rule of thumb is that the cost of doing something halves for every 10-fold increase in the number of times you do it. Leica make 1000 M8's a month; Nikon make 600 D3s a day.

 

- Europe is expensive, period, due to higher taxation and lower productivity than elsewhere, ands there are precious few products of this type made here any more. The M8 is, by my reckoning, the lowest cost digital camera made in Europe and probably outside the Far East.

 

I generally agree with this. It has always been like this in the photo world that you pay a lot more for just marginally better quality. You regularly have to pay 5 times as much for just one aparture step, and so on. The greatest difference between Leica v Canon/Nikon is 'economy of scale'. But quality do also play a role. Particularly regarding optics. I repeat myself when I state that the WATE/M8 is the best digital wide angle solution on the market. It's also economically competitive.

 

But a wast difference today is 'currency rate' related. The M8 was designed and calculated when the dollar/Euro relation was some 33% lower than today. That means that what Leica planned for was a M8 price on the US market some 33% lower than today.

 

'Europe' is a wast place with some 710 million inhabitants, comprising of some very poor (and inefficient) and some very rich (and very efficient) nations. To generalize is impossible. Western Europe, which might have been in your mind, comprises of some of the richest nations in the world, of which, at least 10 has a GNP/capita larger than USA. Many of them offers their inhabitants 'free health care for all', 'lavish pension funds' and practically 'free education' through university - and so on, included in the tax bill. What you call 'high taxes' is a reasonable cost for these services. What might appear to be expensive for a tourists from abroad, sales tax included, is quite reasonable for an local European inhabitant.

 

Leica is a German company (well, owned by an Austrian). Germany is very efficient and competitive with a GNP/capita about the same as Japan with the latest Euro revaluations considered. Before that, slightly lower GNP/capita than Japan. Germany is 'the World's Largest Exporter'. No less.

[Vieri]

CH is not in the EU, but:

 

Seitz Phototechnik AG - Seitz 6x17

 

Very cool camera, even more expensive than Leica! (not quite, considering 160 MP sensor, just I don't have enough pocket change to go get it...)

[marknorton]

CH is not in the EU, but:

 

Seitz Phototechnik AG - Seitz 6x17

 

 

LOL, I did say the M8 was the lowest cost camera made in Europe...