Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Hakku

M8 Upgrade programme ended?

Recommended Posts

If those frame lines you're predicting are in actual focal length and not 35mm field of view terms, I think the camera would not be nearly as appealing as it would be if it included a 28 frame. Given the sensor size in the M8, the 28mm lens has become the body cap for many of us and any camera which didn't include those frame lines is limited. It was the reason I didn't jump at the RD-1 when it was released. I wanted a DRF but didn't want my primary lens to have to use an external viewfinder.

 

I fully agree with you but think Summarit and an "affordable" DRF to go with those "affordable" lenses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sure wish Leica management would get their sh*t together. I don't know EU law, but they are heading for a class action law suit in the USA like a freight train without an engineer. Anyone that purchased the camera relying on Leica's public promise of it never becoming obsolete has an action against Leica should it fail to keep its promise.

 

While I thought it was a bit dumb at the time, their action subsequent is equally lacking in thinking ability. A smart move, if it was all Lee's wrong headed doing would have been to immediately disavow the program and offered a refund to anyone that purchased a camera at that time relying on that promise. Such action would have minimized their exposure and avoided the potential future problems. Otherwise, be prepared when they offer an M9 and the M8 can't or won't be upgraded to equal the M9's specifications to face a class action and probably lose (If it gets certified they will lose).

 

I just don't understand their thinking. This is a litigious society and people that can afford $5K cameras can afford lawyers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I sure wish Leica management would get their sh*t together. I don't know EU law, but they are heading for a class action law suit in the USA like a freight train without an engineer. Anyone that purchased the camera relying on Leica's public promise of it never becoming obsolete has an action against Leica should it fail to keep its promise.

 

While I thought it was a bit dumb at the time, their action subsequent is equally lacking in thinking ability. A smart move, if it was all Lee's wrong headed doing would have been to immediately disavow the program and offered a refund to anyone that purchased a camera at that time relying on that promise. Such action would have minimized their exposure and avoided the potential future problems. Otherwise, be prepared when they offer an M9 and the M8 can't or won't be upgraded to equal the M9's specifications to face a class action and probably lose (If it gets certified they will lose).

 

I just don't understand their thinking. This is a litigious society and people that can afford $5K cameras can afford lawyers.

 

 

Oh, come on John. If I had a dollar every time I read about some yahoo talking about a class action suit against a camera manufacturer, I'd be a rich man.

 

If you or anyone bought the camera as an investment, you are fooling yourselves. It's nothing more than an expense to a professional, and a toy to a hobbiest. Yes we are passionate about our Leica's, Apple enthusiats are also passionate about their computers, etc.

 

Some guy made some promises he was not authorized to make by the board. The guy got fired, and the board set the record straight. Story over.

 

Nothing was a contract, nothing was guaranteed. The upgrade promised will be available. There was no sensor upgrade offered, nothing about Full Frame upgrade, etc.

 

Go photograph something, or start your "class action lawsuit".

 

 

 

DBK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JumpStart,

 

I hope you can take better pictures than your reading abilities might imply. LFI February/March issue: Page 34 article: "M8 Forever; Digital rangefinder photography with the Leica M system is now more timeless than ever. From this Summer on, owners of a Leica M8 will be able to upgrade their camera to keep it on the cutting edge of sizzling-hot body technology. The secrets of longevity: the M8 will soon be opened up to hardware upgrades. A modified shutter and unbreakable glass cover are just the beginning."

 

Just one of many articles including Leica's current web site making such a promise. Anyone making a purchase that relied on the promise is entitled to a breach of contract claim. This has nothing to do with treating it as an investment. And if you think people won't sue because it is just a camera then you better check out cell phone suits and Apple suits over iPods and just computers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While there is no way I would sue over it, it is true that this announcement was the final factor persuading me to buy a second, used, M8. I love my M8s, I'm glad to have the 2nd, but it is what it is, a promise broken that led to a purchase decision. If I were not so happy with my M8s, well, John's point might be true for me at least in spirit. best....Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

... be prepared when they offer an M9 and the M8 can't or won't be upgraded to equal the M9's specifications to face a class action...

I don't seem to recall Leica promising that the M8 would be equal to the forthcoming body's specifications, John. Would you know any link in that sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Article from H. Sparr ("M8 with factory tuning") starts: "All that's left of the original Upgrade programme are the quieter shutter and the harder cover glass for the display".

 

That sounds very much like the end of the long-term upgrade programme before it actually started.

 

Wow, I am speechless...

 

I mean, I was not at all interested in paying that kind of money for these "upgrades" but this is just insane, what a PR nightmare Leica has become.

 

At this point, I am 99.9999% sure that the M8 is the very last Leica item I will ever buy sans binoculars.

 

This is really too bad, makes me hate the digital era even more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Upgradability is good in concept, offering advantages for customers and additional income for the company. Promising "perpetual" upgrades doesn't make sense at all, especially for a camera company in this fast-evolving digital era.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding of the upgrade program outside of what was discussed and wished for here in LUF was rather simple, upgradable shutter and LCD Glass some time in August. The idea that if any changes were made to the M8 during it's production life cycle these would be offered to maintain your older M8 in line with the current production model at that time.

 

Outside of that, Mr Lee hinted that at some point in the future if it was technically possible to transplant future sensor developments into the M8 that perhaps that may also be offered. I always assumed and got the impression rightly or wrongly the context of the discussion was around the M8 as it stands today or into the future. The M9 is a completely different proposition IMO and if you want one of those you'll have to buy it, it's unreasonable to expect your M8 could be transformed into an M9.

 

A lot of people whipped themselves into a frenzy about this discussing their visions of what may be included into the future, the fact remains the upgrade stays as it was announced, since there is no further technical advancement with the M8 at this point of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JumpStart,

 

I hope you can take better pictures than your reading abilities might imply. LFI February/March issue: Page 34 article: "M8 Forever; Digital rangefinder photography with the Leica M system is now more timeless than ever. From this Summer on, owners of a Leica M8 will be able to upgrade their camera to keep it on the cutting edge of sizzling-hot body technology. The secrets of longevity: the M8 will soon be opened up to hardware upgrades. A modified shutter and unbreakable glass cover are just the beginning."

 

Just one of many articles including Leica's current web site making such a promise. Anyone making a purchase that relied on the promise is entitled to a breach of contract claim. This has nothing to do with treating it as an investment. And if you think people won't sue because it is just a camera then you better check out cell phone suits and Apple suits over iPods and just computers.

 

 

I should think that even in the legal world the word "Upgrade" would not mean "Transmogrify into another model"

As long as Leica offers any improvements made to the M8 to current owners as an upgrade, the introduction of a hypothetical new model is moot.

LFI is not a Leica publication btw.

I fail to see how you can read any promise of an upgrade in the website excerpt you posted. To sue the factory would mean you would have to sue in Germany. And as opposed to a jury, German judges tend to go by facts, not implications.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just don't understand their thinking. This is a litigious society and people that can afford $5K cameras can afford lawyers.

 

Great! A class action will kill Leica in the process.

 

Who said: 'Let us first kill the lawyers' ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And as opposed to a jury, German judges tend to go by facts, not implications.

 

Let alone innuendo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wow, I am speechless...

 

I mean, I was not at all interested in paying that kind of money for these "upgrades" but this is just insane, what a PR nightmare Leica has become.

 

At this point, I am 99.9999% sure that the M8 is the very last Leica item I will ever buy sans binoculars.

 

This is really too bad, makes me hate the digital era even more.

 

So am I! How can someone be so naive as to think that Mr. Sparr speaks for Leica, and then seamlessly suffers a crippling bout of angst and hatred?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How appropriate that you should use the word angst, which is a quintessentially German concept...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How appropriate that you should use the word angst, which is a quintessentially German concept...

 

 

Although prominently cornered by the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, and widely quoted as: general frustration associated with the conflict between actual responsibilities to self, one's principles, and others

 

An interesting concept, and it can be discovered in many messages in this forum

 

Edvard Munch: 'Skrik'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John - the point here is "Perpetual" upgrade vs. "time limited" upgrade; so, if Leica will offer the shutter upgrade and the screen update forever they are safe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, i expect a few of us to upgrade the shutter and display glass, so let's focus on future firmware updates and be happy taking pictures

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me the biggest wish is much improved high iso, and firmware won't do it. Any software solution is already better done with 3rd party programs like noise ninja, the sacrifice of detail will always be the issue. Lower noise requires larger pixels, like the 12MP full frame D3. If leica can't come up with a 10 MP full frame, maybe they should consider a 8MP full frame. (though I believe it's the optics of corners with the close fitting lenses that's the issue anyway). The thought is that I'd rather have a 8MP M8 with 2 stops better high Iso, at least on one body. It's like the shutter upgrade, it's a downgrade of speed from 1/8000 to 1/4000 that brings other benefit. best...Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few clarifying points. Number one, I NEVER said that I would sue them, my concern is that their less than intelligent action leaves them open to a suit that could end the company. Number two. A U.S. citizen having purchased their camera in the U.S. does not have to sue in Germany. Leica does business in the U.S. and is susceptible to the long arm statutes of almost every state and the Federal courts. Terms like "perpetual" and "future proof" would be construed under the plain meaning or reasonable person concept. Therefore, perpetual is most likely to be interpreted as forever and future proof as staying current with technology.

 

Leica has never said that Mr. Lee's statements were not to be taken as Leica's statements. In fact it has never publicly stated why it fired Mr. Lee to any level of specificity. The interview in LFI with Dr. kaufman never denounced Mr. Lee's statements. When the CEO of a company speaks, he speaks for the company unless those statements are immediately retracted. I have not seen such a retraction other than to say that a full frame sensor was not in the near future. Press releases and interviews along with a subpoena and deposition of Mr. Lee would all be used.

 

Now I'll go back to taking pictures!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...