Erwin Puts plants a seed

[diogenis]

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Exactly.

Erwin Putts, is being a lil bit nostalgic with all that, but he is also expressing an authentic request of simplicity, contrary to unrealistic complexity of modern gadgets and of course dSLRs. Besides, mechanical marvels of 60s existed in the absence of reliable electronics, or the need for autonomy, since there wasn't such a thing as li ion packs back then.

 

Now, more than ever with the Euro owning $, there might be a market for a good rangefinder camera using the old lenses, maybe a revised electronic rangefinding element instead of splitoptics one, but still using manual movement and a lot less price.

 

Edit: which is the REAL reason for a screen, besides camera functionality? Anyway in order for screen to be useful, they need to make it reflective and a lot more dense, not just bigger but denser.

[Kittyphoto]

All in all I think the M8 does what it does very well while retaining the M form. But most importantly as an existing M8 user my next M purchase would be for an improved camera with perhaps better image quality and high ISO performance, full frame is not a deciding factor for me, perhaps even a turn off with edge quality and changes in effective focal lengths I have at the moment. No, at some time in the future I'll look to add a 2nd body and it won't be a cutdown version of what I have already.

 

I agree with you Eoin. It would be nice if M8 high iso is better. Most DSLR has better noise at very high iso. Too bad they use CMOS so the color is not so good. I think M8 high iso is very good for CCD sensor type. The noise character is quite like Phaseone P30+ to me.

 

If leica move to CMOS to improve noise and battery performance would be really bad choice. Just my 2 cent.

 

kitty

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[rosuna]

The M8 already is very simple. All digital cameras need to make JPGs for the previews at least.

 

I would like some kind of direct control of the ISO (a simple firmware change can bring this) and exposure balance and an optional lever for cocking the shutter (like the R-D1). That's all. What additional simplification can be implemented?

[delander †]

For those that would like a digital MP remember that the MP cost as much as an M7.

 

I don't think the the M8 could be much simpler. I would not buy a digital M or any other digital camera without a screen on the back.

 

Jeff

[fefe]

Link here:

 

The case for simplicity and craftsmanship (May 4, 2008) | Photography and image capture: the Leica technique and philosophy by Erwin Puts | Erwin Puts

 

One way to simplify the camera would be to make it DNG only. JPEG quality in the M8 continues to disappoint and the best way to get round that is not to do any. Some menu items which are greyed out when in DNG-only could then be removed.

 

Next to go would be continuous mode and motorised wind, just a manual wind and release, like the Epson R-D1. No self-timer, if you want one, use one which screws into the old fashioned cable release socket. No on-off switch; the camera is permanently on in sleep mode, woken up using the wind-on lever or shutter release.

 

More radical still would be to make the camera a chimping-free zone by doing away with the entire back of the camera - no screen, buttons, thumb-wheel, just a dial to set ISO; no AE mode, so no EV compensation; no White Balance because you always deal with it in RAW, don't you? If you don't have a screen, you don't have to have a menu item for setting its brightness and whether you have auto-review... No user profiles because you've got nothing to put in them...

 

You'd need some way of formatting cards, setting the time and date and... that's about it. Would a bare-bones camera like this appeal? If it cost 2/3 of an M8?

 

I'd probably use it instead of my M8... It would be slightly more compact because of no chimping, and I am kind of forcing myself to not chimp to try to compose my shots better instead of just shooting chimping recomposing., I'd love the ISO dial, I have never used jpeg on the M8, I ve never used EV compensation, I just turn the speed dial or the aperture ring or just adjust in Lightroom.

[mitchell]

Chimping and histograms are now apart of my process. Exposure and focus both seem more critical in digital. I don't see myself, or enough of the market to be profitable, giving them up.

 

I only use raw so I'm fine with giving up jpegs, but I don't think it will result in that great a cost saving (probably not enough to justify another production line) or simplify my use of the camera.

 

An optional lever cock would be great, but it wouldn't be cheaper or simpler to make.

 

Simpler often isn't cheaper.

 

The biggest cost reduction could probably come from some sort of electronic focusing, but I wouldn't want it.

 

It'd be great if Leica could produce a cheaper camera to gain market share, but I wouldn't buy one.

 

The changes I'd like to see are sealed body and lenses, and greater reliability.

 

Aside from IR, and reliability issues, I'm pretty happy with my M8. But, I'd love to see what Leica could come up with if they started a completely new M design from scratch like the R 8/9 which is a superb, functional and to me asetically pleasing design (with a great exposure compensation setup.) It'd be nice to have a digital M that didn't just about require an awkward add-on handgrip.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[jamriman]

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My guess is it would be more expensive than an M8. I would dump my my MP with an M3 top in a heart beat. Perhaps even my M8.

[Nitnaros]

puts is nostalgic imo, since like Jaap said, the historic Leicas were no "simple machines" for their time.

 

What can be learned is to put useful, state-of-the-art technology into a great human interface that does not interfere with making images.

 

I want "better", not less;

What is true is that "more" does not automatically equate to "better".

THAT is the typical design mistake today.

 

What I would like:

- Better focusing, since it is so critical with digital (and I want to shoot wide-open with my Leica lenses)

- Solar power to run the camera would be truly terrific when outdoors

- Even better LCD

- A modular design that would allow to replace the complete imager electronics

- And of course keeping the small overalll size - THAT is currently a key unique feature of the M series

 

Peter

[johnalex141r]

Has anyone else wondered about the planned start date of the shutter replacements, and the PhotoKina exhibition???

 

I wonder what the tie-in is between these two??

 

JohnS.

[terrycioni]

Mr. Putts maybe on to something, who knows!

 

I have wondered if our friends at Leica are more focused on a less expensive (if you like simpler) RF body rather than a full frame M9, leaving (for now) their top end body to the M8 (with continuing improvements and firmware). An example of simpler in my opinion and as has been pointed out, a real wind leaver as opposed to a motorized winder - ala RD-1.

 

I certainly agree that the M8 from an operation perspective is pretty darn simple as it is currently and when compared to some of the more recent computers mascarading as cameras (I speak from experience here).

 

I stress this is just wondering out loud. PK this year will be fun to watch from a Leica perspective.

 

Best to all. Terry.

[fotografr]

More radical still would be to make the camera a chimping-free zone by doing away with the entire back of the camera - no screen, buttons, thumb-wheel...

 

No chimping???

 

One suggestion I very much agree with is getting rid of the motorized shutter cocking mechanism and replacing it with a thumb lever. I've felt this way since I first picked up the M8.

[trs]

+1 for thumb lever. It slows me down and makes me think even if it is just for split second. And of course, it looks old (nostalgic I guess). I was just asked this weekend how my camra was

 

 

FF sensor, I personally don't care because I am not much of wide angle person. Recent outing with M7 just reminded me that I am not ready for FF yet.

 

M8 today is as simple as it can get. If I want more automated machine, I will pick up my dSLRs, but it has not come to that yet since I got M8.

 

-tanka

[zlatkob]

I love simplicity, but the screen is one of the best things to come to cameras EVER. It certainly simplifies my review of what's been captured. I would not buy a digital camera without a screen. That would be brutally retro and pointless. If you have it, you can always choose to ignore it, or turn it off, or set it to a very short preview time, or check it only when you really need to.

[lct]

...I would not buy a digital camera without a screen...

Neither would I but a reversible display a la R-D1 would be a must IMHO.

[george +]

Interesting thoughts. Whatever simplifies the design and makes a notable reduction in cost is welcome. But think; the M1 was cheaper than the M3 because it did away with the expensive rangefinder. Leaving out a few pieces of electronics or a few thousand steps of code is not going to reduce the cost too much.

 

As to that rangefinder, I much prefer it to an auto arrangement - but it is obsolete and costly, very costly to make. There is room here for economical changes that would be more accurate too. Other reductions, like a plastic body and cast components maybe an interesting thought for a backup body. But do not expect that to be Leica quality.

[Dan States]

1. Bellows lens mount with tilt and shift but no focus adjustment!

2. Replace LCD with dot matrix printer that spits out ticker tape images and stock prices.

3. Replace SD card with 5" floppy disc. Good for users of Smith Corona Word Processors.

4. Fixed focus 21mm F8 lens thats pretty darned sharp from here to wherever!

5. Three speed shutter. 1/30, 1/90, 1/250. Speeds chosen at random by camera.

6. Replace traditional battery with lemon juice and a piece of copper.

7. New hammer tone finish made with REAL HAMMERS!

8. Lens free viewfinder that never needs cleaning! It's just a hole!

[Bob Ross]

Interesting thoughts. Whatever simplifies the design and makes a notable reduction in cost is welcome. But think; the M1 was cheaper than the M3 because it did away with the expensive rangefinder. Leaving out a few pieces of electronics or a few thousand steps of code is not going to reduce the cost too much.

 

As to that rangefinder, I much prefer it to an auto arrangement - but it is obsolete and costly, very costly to make. There is room here for economical changes that would be more accurate too. Other reductions, like a plastic body and cast components maybe an interesting thought for a backup body. But do not expect that to be Leica quality.

Hi George,

I agree with your thoughts about the rangefinder component, well maybe not the obsolete part, but the RF has to be the most costly part of an M. If it could be electronically mimiced, have a single frame line, be adjustable for focus variations (ala Pentax), made modular for easy replacement/service, it might even fit into Erwin's "essence" and cost less.

Bob

[plasticman]

I think it's interesting how quickly these sorts of threads descend into sarcasm and/or "I-think-the-M8-is-perfect-as-it-is"-type of responses.

 

Dr Kaufmann has hinted many times now that some sort of 'entry-level' digital-M is being developed. What it's final form will be, we can only guess. I doubt whether Leica is scouring these forums for feature wish-lists at this stage; nor do I imagine they care about the M8 owners who are wishing this new product away.

 

I'm looking forward to it.

[jackal]

1. Bellows lens mount with tilt and shift but no focus adjustment!

2. Replace LCD with dot matrix printer that spits out ticker tape images and stock prices.

3. Replace SD card with 5" floppy disc. Good for users of Smith Corona Word Processors.

4. Fixed focus 21mm F8 lens thats pretty darned sharp from here to wherever!

5. Three speed shutter. 1/30, 1/90, 1/250. Speeds chosen at random by camera.

6. Replace traditional battery with lemon juice and a piece of copper.

7. New hammer tone finish made with REAL HAMMERS!

8. Lens free viewfinder that never needs cleaning! It's just a hole!

 

 

lol ! best post for weeks .....

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pierovitch]

Firmware update

 

M3 mode locks out all features not available on an M3 and displays a film reminder dial on the LCD screen. Options - Plays back sounds of M3 shutter and film wind; only allows 36 shots then pauses to show a video of film loading sequence. HCB option B+W TIFF with Tri-X film grain and non HCB lens lockout. That should cover the Purists.

 

Cheers Pierre