bayerische Posted April 12, 2008 Share #41 Posted April 12, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, then I'd take just a good old piece of tempered glass like the unscratchable one in the Nikon for less $. How Leica can justify going from the piece of crap they put in the M8 to begin with to a $750 sapphire I don't know. Some common sense in the first place is what the M9 truly needs. The M8/9 doesn't need a "diamond" on the back of it's sh**ty little screen (face it there's $250 p&s with better screens). It needs some reliable electronics! Oh man... Tempered glas is scratchable, So is sapphire, so is a diamond. Don't know about your M8, but my is perfectly reliable. About the screen, the quality is not important, clearly what Leica is trying to do is making the M8 a long lasting camera. Having a scratched-up lcd screen would be a good ide if one would use his M8 for 10 years... Now before wo (again!) do into the reliablility of the M8, I for one believe an M8 could very well live 10 years or more. And whatever your view on the Sapphire back, I believe it's important you understand what Sapphire is. Tempered glas is probably hundreds if not thousands of times more economic to manufacture plus you have the pleasure of making large pieces of it. Impossible with Sapphire with current technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 12, 2008 Posted April 12, 2008 Hi bayerische, Take a look here M9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bayerische Posted April 12, 2008 Share #42 Posted April 12, 2008 Sapphire glas, just as a reminder: WHY SAPPHIRE? • Mechanically second only to diamond. One of the hardest and most scratch resistant materials available. The high modulus of elasticity and high tensile strength make it extremely wear, abrasion and impact resistant. • Colorless optical characteristics are superior to any standard glass, with up to a 98.5% transmission and a transmission window from 190 nanometers in the UV to 5 microns in the IR. • No solarization in high-radiation systems. • High dielectric constant and low loss tangent makes it a great electrical insulator and low loss long wavelength window. • Thermally very stable. Does not lose any of its mechanical and optical qualities from cryogenic to over 2000C. • Thermal conductivity greater than other optical materials and most dielectrics. • No surface damage and devitrification due to extreme thermal cycling • Does not sag or slump at very elevated temperatures. • Highly corrosion resistant. More resistant to corrosive chemicals than most standard hard materials available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 12, 2008 Share #43 Posted April 12, 2008 Well, then I'd take just a good old piece of tempered glass like the unscratchable one in the Nikon for less $. How Leica can justify going from the piece of crap they put in the M8 to begin with to a $750 sapphire I don't know. Some common sense in the first place is what the M9 truly needs. The M8/9 doesn't need a "diamond" on the back of it's sh**ty little screen (face it there's $250 p&s with better screens). It needs some reliable electronics! Charles, find a darkened room and lie down for a few minutes. By the way shitty is not spelt sh**ty, either have the courage to post what you mean or don't bother. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted April 12, 2008 Share #44 Posted April 12, 2008 Sapphire glas, just as a reminder: WHY SAPPHIRE? • Mechanically second only to diamond. One of the hardest and most scratch resistant materials available. The high modulus of elasticity and high tensile strength make it extremely wear, abrasion and impact resistant. • Colorless optical characteristics are superior to any standard glass, with up to a 98.5% transmission and a transmission window from 190 nanometers in the UV to 5 microns in the IR. • No solarization in high-radiation systems. • High dielectric constant and low loss tangent makes it a great electrical insulator and low loss long wavelength window. • Thermally very stable. Does not lose any of its mechanical and optical qualities from cryogenic to over 2000C. • Thermal conductivity greater than other optical materials and most dielectrics. • No surface damage and devitrification due to extreme thermal cycling • Does not sag or slump at very elevated temperatures. • Highly corrosion resistant. More resistant to corrosive chemicals than most standard hard materials available. That's very interesting and no doubt important for the likes of NASA if you need to take an M8 up to outer space. For street shooting I'm happy to take a cheaper 'good enough' tempered glass LCD at 1/10th the cost. However, I do appreciate Leica being Leica and over-achieving as far the basic engineering is concerned. I can almost hear the design conversation where the scratchy current LCD was reviewed and where a Leica engineer was told to just 'fix it' so the problem goes away and LCD lasts forever - the result is sapphire glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted April 12, 2008 Share #45 Posted April 12, 2008 Every day there is a new M8 breakdown on forum, camera, software, charger take your pick. So, yes I guess when the M digital becomes robust, reliable, and its files are a match for the DMR files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 12, 2008 Share #46 Posted April 12, 2008 I really wonder whether the existing glass/plastic is a problem. I don't nurse my cameras, especially not the one I took apart, and I don't have a problem with it. The baseplate/grip with the plastic film and label removed is a different matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantist Posted April 12, 2008 Share #47 Posted April 12, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Will you upgrade your M8 to M9 if it is FF if it cost USD7000?Of course YES !!!Leica has never been challenging on prices level. But what anyone is expecting as quality results of its pictures, rendering from lenses and the specific soul of Leica use has no value, but only considered by asiatic constructors to enhance their benefits. I always remember that the Nikon F was quite popular during Vietnam war. Quite useful, cheap, enough good for pictures about wars, and the cherry on the cake : ready to be thrown after use. In addition, they now build lenses in something else as glass, means to me it's not made for decades. This is not at all the case with any Leica camera nore lens. And price shouldn't be a problem for serious users, who expect a clear response and high professional quality result from their tool. Cheers Michel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted April 12, 2008 Share #48 Posted April 12, 2008 I for one believe the Sapphire glas is a far more versatile and more understandable option, to a Leica camera than the Hermés or other "BS" a la carte luxury options you can equip your Leica with... I believe I'm going to do the Sapphire update at some point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericperlberg Posted April 12, 2008 Share #49 Posted April 12, 2008 I really wonder whether the existing glass/plastic is a problem. I don't nurse my cameras, especially not the one I took apart, and I don't have a problem with it. The baseplate/grip with the plastic film and label removed is a different matter. Mark, I'm just one person and I wish it wasn't so but my LCD screen is a mess, partly as a result of a fall I took with the camera its become scratched and partly, somehow, through use the coating on the LCD has become for lack of a better term blotchy. I don't baby my cameras and they get used daily. My D2 and 1dsII screens stood up to the same handling that my M8 screen didn't. I'll happily get the updated sapphire LCD when it becomes available. Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Essemmlee Posted April 12, 2008 Share #50 Posted April 12, 2008 if I change my perfectly usable screen to a NASA quality sapphire glass, will it assist me in taking better photographs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted April 12, 2008 Share #51 Posted April 12, 2008 ...... i certainly hope Leica takes some cues from the D3 for the M9............I hope Leica abandons the "purity" of the M for some modern updating. ....the M8 is my art camera.. great as it is....... D3 is the one going into the money jobs from now on. Charles might be having a bit of a grumpy day and has attracted some negative responses, but essentially his posts make sense. I too think the M8 [and contrary to the entire previous M line] is an 'art' camera, and like Charles; if I were in a pressure photography situation my choice would be Nikon every time [i'm agnostic - if others choose Canon that's fine]. Someone noted that earlier ['heavyweight'] contributors to the forum are a little scarcer these days, I know where some of them are, and despite their fondness for what the M8 can occasionally do - they are gravitating back to DSLRs for pressure work. I want Leica to thrive as something better than a niche tool manufacturer with it's small but fervent support. There are those here I suspect of believing Leica is a 'cottage industry'; always needing excessive praise and gushing support for daring to maintain it's legacy awkwardness. It's a bit like a 'cottage' table maker producing tables with one leg shorter than the other three because that's what his Grandad did; whilst disregarding the wider market waiting for him to make the design leap - producing crafted tables with four legs of the same length. Like Charles, I too think that putting a 'Sapphire' glass over a shitty little screen is completely irrelevant compared to the the shifts needed in 'M' thinking. The point being that in this example it's the screen which needs the update far more than it's protective cover. [if you are thinking of stating the bleeding obvious that no-one is forced to buy a new screen please don't because it really is self evident]. Also like Charles, I want Leica to be more modern and like him I have had extensive use of rangefinders [25 years in my case but always 120 film prior to the M8]. Whether you agree or disagree with me, go and have a look at Charles' work. See if you too think that this is a guy well suited to rangefinder working. My point being that his frustrations with the M8 are borne out of real, paying, work with the camera. Occasionally grumpy or not - I respect his earnt viewpoint, and him. .............. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thai.charlie Posted April 12, 2008 Share #52 Posted April 12, 2008 Sapphire glas, just as a reminder: WHY SAPPHIRE? • Mechanically second only to diamond. One of the hardest and most scratch resistant materials available. The high modulus of elasticity and high tensile strength make it extremely wear, abrasion and impact resistant. • Colorless optical characteristics are superior to any standard glass, with up to a 98.5% transmission and a transmission window from 190 nanometers in the UV to 5 microns in the IR. • No solarization in high-radiation systems. • High dielectric constant and low loss tangent makes it a great electrical insulator and low loss long wavelength window. • Thermally very stable. Does not lose any of its mechanical and optical qualities from cryogenic to over 2000C. • Thermal conductivity greater than other optical materials and most dielectrics. • No surface damage and devitrification due to extreme thermal cycling • Does not sag or slump at very elevated temperatures. • Highly corrosion resistant. More resistant to corrosive chemicals than most standard hard materials available. Gosh, its a digital camera (unsealed also, for that matter). So the sapphire glass survives 2000c. It's not a Rolex (which wouldn't survive 2000c either) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Ortego Posted April 12, 2008 Share #53 Posted April 12, 2008 From various sources, I think the FF M9 is work in progress. :eek: R10 is going to be interesting too!!! ... Sadly, if even half of this stuff becomes reality, it’s likely my current M8 with Leica glass may well become my back up. I would very likely embrace the R10 as long as I could afford it. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericperlberg Posted April 12, 2008 Share #54 Posted April 12, 2008 if I change my perfectly usable screen to a NASA quality sapphire glass, will it assist me in taking better photographs? I don't believe you are required to change your perfectly usable screen. Others, who no longer have a perfectly usable screen, like myself, will happily exchange it. We all know an LCD screen doesn't make you a better photographer but one which has become badly scratched and hard to see does make digital photography frustrating. Why does that bother you so much? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted April 12, 2008 Share #55 Posted April 12, 2008 if I change my perfectly usable screen to a NASA quality sapphire glass, will it assist me in taking better photographs? Don't know. Only you can answer that question my friend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted April 12, 2008 Share #56 Posted April 12, 2008 Gosh, its a digital camera (unsealed also, for that matter). So the sapphire glass survives 2000c. It's not a Rolex (which wouldn't survive 2000c either) The slection of a Sapphire glas for the M8 vesus, let's say tempered glas is fairly simple. Leica is more of a luxury brand, why do you think you can get it dressed in Hermés? Because otherwise you can't show up to the Bahrain GP? It all maybe a bit silly. Luxury is silly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted April 12, 2008 Share #57 Posted April 12, 2008 Oh, and just as a "final" note, if you don't like the idea of a 750e Sapphire screen, don't buy it! Why trash it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted April 12, 2008 Share #58 Posted April 12, 2008 Because people are hanging out for credible upgrades, not just cosmetic, and they are getting frustrated? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted April 12, 2008 Share #59 Posted April 12, 2008 Oh, and just as a "final" note, if you don't like the idea of a 750e Sapphire screen, don't buy it! Why trash it? Because I would rather pay $250 (mmmm... or not at all) for a tempered glass screen that doesn't scratch. I don't need one to survive 500 meters depth or 2000K! For sure I would suffer Sudden Death Syndrome long before the screen gives out. And anyway, I already had to spend hundreds of dollars on IR filters, lens coding, etc not to mention time out for repairs. I just bought four primes for my Nikon for the same price as one lowly Summitar! Leica has just gotten too expensive! My screen is scratched from a small amount of time I had a screen protector fall off when on location and no access to a spare for a few days. I know it's because of the way I change lenses mostly (holding lens and camera both in left hand). I'm trying to be more aware while doing so but old habits hard to change. I think part of my grumpiness surrounding the M8 is finally giving in and getting my first truly pro full frame dslr (D3) and realizing what incredible frustration the M8 process was. The Nikon just works, right out of the box (I had to return my first 8, almost immediately, and then my current one had to go off for 2 months of repair). Same price, world of difference in reliability. If it was a perfect world I would shoot everything with an M. Alas, Leica hasn't gotten there yet. I truly hope they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericperlberg Posted April 12, 2008 Share #60 Posted April 12, 2008 Because people are hanging out for credible upgrades, not just cosmetic, and they are getting frustrated? It's a cosmetic upgrade if you don't need it, its a functional upgrade if your screen has gotten scratched up and you do need it. It sounds like credible upgrade to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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