Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Tom_W

Adieu

Recommended Posts

Guest rweisz

Advertisement (gone after registration)

However if you have the time the M8 cannot be betten for pure emotion assuming you can pass the lower take home rate.

 

It's a short list of pro's who can afford to buy gear based on emotion. I'm not on that list nor is any other pro I've ever met, and I've met quite a lot (although to be fair, I don't know what they say on the internet forums vs what they actually do in reality).

 

And with the M8 it isn't a question of a "lower take-home rate", it's a matter of there being a good chance all you'll take home is a busted camera and the desire to disappear into thin air so you don't have to face your boss or client. Been there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some people it *is* a life-changing event -- like people who have been with Leica for an off-and-on 50 years and then find out they can't deal with the camera any more; that they can't trust it, that's it's not doing what they need it to. Some people have had no problems, but anyone who says that the M8 in any way lives up to the Leica standard of reliability, is delusional. Saying, "Mine's never broken" doesn't help the guy who's standing there with an inoperable M8 and a busted assignment. And there have been way too many of those. Film is an option, but after a boy's seen digital, it's hard to go back to the farm...

 

JC

 

So you basically say that you don't trust Leica's mechanical simplicity, but you do trust Nicon or Canon which have 10x the complexity, 3x the weight and size because of that, a dozen of micromotors, couple mirrors, pentaprisms and loads of various electronics?

They are machine devices, they are prone to break, hence the warranties.

But the global rule: the most complex machine usually fails easier is also true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a short list of pro's who can afford to buy gear based on emotion. I'm not on that list nor is any other pro I've ever met, and I've met quite a lot (although to be fair, I don't know what they say on the internet forums vs what they actually do in reality).

 

And with the M8 it isn't a question of a "lower take-home rate", it's a matter of there being a good chance all you'll take home is a busted camera and the desire to disappear into thin air so you don't have to face your boss or client. Been there.

 

Problem is: Nobody can quantify "good chance" except maybe Leica, and they are not telling.

Any camera has a chance, good or otherwise of breaking down. That is why all pro's and most serious amateurs have backup cameras.

As a general observation, I can feel for the OP, as I have lost many decisive shots over the decades, but 99% of the lost moments were due to operator aberrations, not the camera. With any Leica M, including the M8 it is very close to 100% pilot error. My wife is still angry about a roll of film containing the last photographs of a beloved cat that got lost in developing....

Having said that, I feel that putting the camera in machine-gun mode and hoping for the best to capture a special moment in my experience is counterproductive. Looking and shooting at exactly the right time is sure to get more expressive photographs. That is difficult with a (D)SLR due to shutter lag and restricted viewfinder, and easy on a rangefinder camera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I really don't understand is why anyone having continuous problems with a camera (any camera) would not keep returning it until it was fixed. I had a Canon 400 L lens that was so soft that to me it was unusable. I took it to Canon who said they adjusted it and argued it was within specs. After the 3rd time in and with a cd full of Raw examples they agreed that it could not be fixed and gave me a new lens which they tested before giving it to me. If it is still under warranty they have to fix it period. At least if you want to sell it you can say that there are no problems with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you perpetuate these gross exaggerations about weight and size?

 

The closest comparison would be:

 

M8 = 545g 139x80x37mm

 

5D = 810g 152x113x75mm

 

Hardly supports these claims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So you basically say that you don't trust Leica's mechanical simplicity, but you do trust Nicon or Canon which have 10x the complexity, 3x the weight and size because of that, a dozen of micromotors, couple mirrors, pentaprisms and loads of various electronics?

They are machine devices, they are prone to break, hence the warranties.

But the global rule: the most complex machine usually fails easier is also true.

 

Mmmmm. I love my M8 for what it does. But one of the nice things about my new D3 is that I don't have to a) send my old mf wide angle lenses off for 2 months and $175 to be able to use or

constantly pulling out a sharpie and smearing up my camera (and self coding only seems to work some of the time). Why can't Leica just relent and get on with things?

 

Leica has always had problems with electronics reaching back to the early R's. Even the M7 has been plagued with electronic glitches. There's some things the Japanese do really well - complex electronics is one of them. I actually think Leica tried to fit too much into a small space and cut some corners. They also needed at least another 6 months of testing and R&D but were forced to go with the market. I won't even go into the hassles I had over the last year with my M8, let alone the service. Lets say at times it sucked.

 

I think what it comes down to is if a client has flown you (and themselves), put you up in a hotel room, arranged transport, and the list goes on, your camera had pretty well work, and work fast, and work flexible (oh, "hey, can you get a close-up of that?"). Going to the local car show (seem to see a lot of that on here - why one needs any $5K for that I don't know) is one thing. Being flown half way around the world is another on a client's dime is another.

 

Now, for myself, I wouldn't hesitate taking the M8 to Vietnam or Europe on holiday or personal project for a month (with a backup of some sort of course- M7, Rolleiflex TLR, D300). If the camera breaks, well I just switch to film, buy a p&s, or enjoy myself.

 

Yes, there have been a few cases of D3's breaking. But very very few. And in those cases Nikon turns them around in a day or two (not a month or two).

 

Hey, I have a Leica logo tattooed on my forearm. I'm a user for life. The M8 has been a fantastic but in ways a pro needs (this one at least) frustratingly flawed camera. I know I can't take the same pics with my M8 as my new D3. And vice versa. I love them both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

[quote name=bill;534074 It's a change of camera kit' date=' not a life altering event.

Bye.

Regards,

Bill[/quote]

 

Yes, it's far more important than that !!

 

Rolo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest rweisz

Any camera has a chance, good or otherwise of breaking down.

 

In the case of the M8, good. In the case of Canon or Nikon, otherwise. I know more than a dozen pro's with M8's that have developed one or more defects serious enough to require a trip back to the factory. Those same dozen also shoot multiple bodies with either Nikon or Canon, and only one has had to return a camera for service, and that was to replace a shutter after almost 200,000 actuations. It should be embarassing for someone to keep trying to paint the M8 as equally reliable/unreliable as the pro-series Nikon and Canon, when day after day more and more M8's are breaking down. For an amatuer who owns two of them, it's not something to lose sleep over. That's about where we can agree.

 

I feel that putting the camera in machine-gun mode and hoping for the best to capture a special moment in my experience is counterproductive.

 

There we agree. But maybe a lot of amatuers and even some pro's do spray-n-pray, however the majority of pro's know almost as much about photography as you do

 

Looking and shooting at exactly the right time is sure to get more expressive photographs. That is difficult with a (D)SLR due to shutter lag and restricted viewfinder, and easy on a rangefinder camera.

 

Now I'm worried you really don't know what you're talking about. Shutter-lag is practically nonexistant on the pro DSLR's, and their buffers hold more and clear in much less time than the M8's. To say that "shooting at the right time" is hampered by a "restricted" viewfinder on an SLR is ludicrous in face of the fact that over 90% of the most outstanding news photography of the last 50 years has been made with SLR's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why do you perpetuate these gross exaggerations about weight and size?

 

The closest comparison would be:

 

M8 = 545g 139x80x37mm

 

5D = 810g 152x113x75mm

 

Hardly supports these claims.

Who exaggerates? that is 30% more weight and double the volume. Not counting the lenses, which are even more different.

I like DSLR's, but dragging R9/DMR/telezoom which is what I use it for, at over 3 kg's is something different from a Leica and short lens at 800 grams, which is what I use that combo for. Not comparable in any sense, and horses for courses. The use determines the tool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Problem is: Nobody can quantify "good chance" except maybe Leica, and they are not telling.

Any camera has a chance, good or otherwise of breaking down. That is why all pro's and most serious amateurs have backup cameras.

As a general observation, I can feel for the OP, as I have lost many decisive shots over the decades, but 99% of the lost moments were due to operator aberrations, not the camera. With any Leica M, including the M8 it is very close to 100% pilot error. My wife is still angry about a roll of film containing the last photographs of a beloved cat that got lost in developing....

Having said that, I feel that putting the camera in machine-gun mode and hoping for the best to capture a special moment in my experience is counterproductive. Looking and shooting at exactly the right time is sure to get more expressive photographs. That is difficult with a (D)SLR due to shutter lag and restricted viewfinder, and easy on a rangefinder camera.

 

What? read the post i just made. it has nothing to do with "user error." It has to do with a higher number of problems with the M8 (and I've encountered almost all of them). Not to mention all the filter/coding b.s. and so on. I've never lost a shot or had freeze ups with a Canon or Nikon. Both with the M8, two different bodies, in under a year. Not to mention sticky rangefinder lines, calibration issues, row of dead pixels, a 28 coded as a 24, and so on. And months to fix/replace things. Not that a big deal if just taking pics of your cat, but definitely lost time for a pro. That said, I've produced some stunning pics this year I probably couldn't have gotten with any other camera (except my M7 - it's really all about the lenses).

 

The Nikon D3 dslr slays the M8 as far as shutter lag. And the viewfinder is 100% exactly what you see is what you get (and huge). I generally use in single shot mode, and quite often manual metering. Not sure where you get this stuff about machine gunning.....I think you'd be surprised how many true working photographers of Magnum/Leica fame switch back and forth between systems. David Alan Harvey uses both an M8 and a D200 equally (as well as M6's). Bruce Davidson Canons and Leicas. And so on. Sometimes the Leica elitism of this forum is really telling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm worried you really don't know what you're talking about. Shutter-lag is practically nonexistant on the pro DSLR's, and their buffers hold more and clear in much less time than the M8's. To say that "shooting at the right time" is hampered by a "restricted" viewfinder on an SLR is ludicrous in face of the fact that over 90% of the most outstanding news photography of the last 50 years has been made with SLR's.

Don't worry, I know what I am talking about, and I know the short lag in the newest DSLR's. But you can hardly deny the diffeernce in style, not the fact that a RF viewfinder shows a considerable slice of surroundings which an SLR does not That is what I meant with restricted, you can see the moment coming. Yes 90% has been made with SLR's - and 99 % of the cameras used were SLR's (don't start -fused or good reason) tilting the relative success rate in favour of the RF. But that is all hairsplitting - never the twain shall meet....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest rweisz
the fact that a RF viewfinder shows a considerable slice of surroundings which an SLR does not

 

My 1DS-series and 5D show a considerable slice of surroundings beyond the 1.3x-crop of my M8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Having said that, I feel that putting the camera in machine-gun mode and hoping for the best to capture a special moment in my experience is counterproductive. Looking and shooting at exactly the right time is sure to get more expressive photographs. That is difficult with a (D)SLR due to shutter lag and restricted viewfinder, and easy on a rangefinder camera.

 

Jaap, I certainly agree with you about machine gun mode. It's counterproductive and almost guarantees a series of almost-good-enoughs but no jump-out-at-you winner. There's a story about Brassai going to photograph a notable (don't remember who) and finding a couple of young hotshots with rapid-fire cameras blazing away at the guy. When they found out who he was they helped him set up his camera on an ancient tripod that kept trying to kneel down. Finally, he made one or two exposures and folded up his gear. They were astounded, but he told them he'd rather choose the right picture and shoot it than feel he'd won it in a lottery.

 

But the remark about shutter lag -- have you actually tried a D3 or even a D2X? There's no noticeable shutter lag: 37 milliseconds to be exact. And the "restricted" viewfinder lets you frame exactly, at 100%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Canon and Nikon probably have about 10 prototype DSLRs in the pipeline right now. If we are lucky Leica have two maybe three, M9, little M and R10 and Leica's resources are such that they wont all come out in the same year.

 

Canon and Nikon film SLRs ten years ago were stuffed with electronics, they have far more expertise in this area than Leica. The M8 is a work in progress and Leica will sort the reliabililty problems given time but that will of necessity by 3-5 years. Can they really be expected to manage it quicker. I dont think so.

 

We all know that the RF is a fundamentally different photographic tool to the SLR, so I don't know why we spend so much time comparing them.

 

Over on the RFF forum there are still film RF saltwarts 'caving in' to the M8, for all its 'problems' it is the future of RF photography until another manufacturer steps into the ring.

 

 

Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The idea that Canikon's have no problems is an urban myth. A professional acquaintance uses a D2x for studio work. It seems to break about every three months and makes the trip for repairs. Admittedly Nikon gets it back to him within a week

The list of DSLR users with problems on ALL the forums grows exponentially every day. Yes, I'm lucky in that I've never had a digital failure (knock loudly on wood), but then I've never had a problem that required a technician, other than regular service, on a film camera in over forty years of shooting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.. Looking and shooting at exactly the right time is sure to get more expressive photographs...

 

Please tell me how you know it is "exactly the right time." Does that mean all of your pictures are perfect and you never shoot any that you don't like?

 

I know when I shoot lifestyle images using several models, I certainly can't watch everyone's expression and study the interaction between people. I often shoot tethered as fast as my flashes will recycle. Sometimes, I'll hear my client say, "That's a good one." because he/she is watching the images as they come in to the computer. But I might not have seen it as "special" while I was shooting although some reflex made me press the button at that time. After a little while, the client and I review the images on the computer to make sure that at least one works the way we hope. If not, we shoot more. A couple of times, I've gotten an image the client liked on the first frame. In the old days with film, we shot even more, just to hope we had it, because we couldn't review the images on the shoot.

 

By the way, once I heard Lynn Goldsmith speak. She said one thing that convinced her she'd have a chance at being successful as a shooter was after she had the opportunity to look at Bresson's contact sheets at Magnum. She realized that his ideas and timing weren't always great and he too produced a lot of bad photos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I'm lucky in that I've never had a digital failure (knock loudly on wood), but then I've never had a problem that required a technician, other than regular service, on a film camera in over forty years of shooting.

 

There is certainly more simple certainty in an all mechanical system, when compared to a digital system, be it in a camera, a car, whatever...they still break down but the skills needed to repair them are more easily within the realm of the non-specialist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alan, we all make a lot of bad shots, but the way you describe it makes the process of getting a good one sound to be total chance and a random occurrence.

 

One of the most important things when shooting say street photography IMHO is anticipation of what's happening or about to happen. That doesn't mean every shot will work, there are too many variables, but it helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please tell me how you know it is "exactly the right time." .

 

Experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Bernd Banken

When I look at Heidi Klum's TV shows how the photographer has to make shots of models I can understand that the way to get good streetshots is TOTALLY different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue., Read more about our Privacy Policy