Tina Manley Posted March 25, 2008 Share #41 Posted March 25, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Gus - Leica Professional Service has shipped me overnight loaner cameras at least three times. When I sent my M8 in to have the shutter replaced, after almost two years of very heavy use, LPS was shipping me the loaner but managed to repair my own M8 and get it back to me in just over a week. As I mentioned before, the main reason I have two M8's is so I can avoid changing lenses. The same reason I had two M6's and two M7's. Tina Tina Manley- powered by SmugMug Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 25, 2008 Posted March 25, 2008 Hi Tina Manley, Take a look here Second M8, pro and con. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gmaurizio Posted March 25, 2008 Share #42 Posted March 25, 2008 Thanks Peter and Tina for your comments. Before addressing each of them, let me make a brief statement. Nowhere in my post I suggest using ONLY a single camera, or that a Photog DOES NOT need backup in the field. My point is against those general and universal statements, like "a PRO HAS to have a SECOND same body for backup". This is just plain not true, while this does not mean he CAN NOT have a second body. Gus- If I drop a camera and break it at a wedding, it isn't relevant how fast Leica can send me a replacement. One day might as well be 100 years.....Peter Wedding is a special assignment. Of course you can take two identical bodies, or better still, take a different body with a zoom lens, or whatever. My point is that a second body does not eliminate risk. It can be argued, and many have pointed this out, that the single biggest point of failure is really the SD card. The fact that the M8 does not have two hot backup cards in each body, renders the M8 an un-professional camera? What if your two favorite lenses jam? Do you take two of everything? Does the M8 allow the frantic pace that sometimes modern weddings --celebrity style-- take when you have to switch lenses and adjust for manual focus? Again, I do not mean that a SECOND BODY is NEVER needed. Gus - Leica Professional Service has shipped me overnight loaner cameras at least three times. Tina, I am glad Leica Pro Services does not always screw up. But I am sure you will agree that you do not disprove a theory by providing examples of where observation agrees with reality, but by providing those cases where they do not match. Several photogs in this forum, me included, have not had the same good experience. I was deprived of some lenses and a body for several weeks, with no loaner whatsoever, being a member of LPS. I applaud those photogs, pro or amateur, that seem to be perfectly happy with the rendering of a single body and set of lenses, for them, there is nothing better. Not my case, and not the case of many more out there. As much as I love my M8, my D3, my Digilux-2, my Hasselblad and my Tachihara field camera, all of them have problems, issues and flaws, not to say anything about improvement areas. Just it is not right to say that, in order to be a pro, YOU MUST HAVE a second body. Not true in all and every case. Partially true. But mostly because of Leica's inability to define its products and services to the level of excellence we can have from other manufacturers. And they all have issues! That is the huge problem now. Quality is going down the drain, and we become tolerant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 25, 2008 Share #43 Posted March 25, 2008 Gus i will be honest with you any good responsible working Pro working without a net is a complete idiot and does not deserve a ounce of respect from the industry at large and this just makes other photographers look like scum bags. We struggle everyday to make it in this business and have to fight off these low lives that come into our industry and cut our throats on our fees by undercutting every job we are going for. This is about responsibility,integrity and our reputations. At the end of the day that is ALL we have . We can shoot lights out but if we are jerks and not responsible to your clients than you are frankly worthless about calling yourself a Pro. Sorry to be so strong worded but I know Riccas and Tina plus others will feel the same way as i do because just carrying that Pro title means nothing if your not out there earning it. That comes with being responsible to your client and having the proper gear and backup to get the job done NO MATTER what happens. You have no options but to deliver every day and every time. So when we say have to have it ,that comes with integrity and responsibility to your business and clients. Sorry there are no shortcuts to backing your ass up we have no choice. If you don't have a second body than you better have another system that can do it if you go down and cover everything thrown at you. You simply can't walk away without the goods. Sorry to say this but this is all we truly have as Pro's and reason we are hired in the first place and that is to deliver. Flame suit on Now just to add every OEM has Pro service because they want there Pro's out there working and not being without gear. I also have Pro service with leica have for years and believe me they NEVER left me out there in the cold. I have always had 2 bodies no matter what happened and it has. Leica Pro service deserves a lot more credit than it gets. But Canon and Nikon also have this and it is a great service for there Pro's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaurizio Posted March 25, 2008 Share #44 Posted March 25, 2008 Gus i will be honest with you any good responsible working Pro working without a net is a complete idiot ... Sorry to say this but this is all we truly have as Pro's and reason we are hired in the first place and that is to deliver. Excuse my brief answer: So? I do not mean to work without backup. Just that a second M8 is not the ONLY alternative. It seems that is getting hard to actually read the posts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 25, 2008 Share #45 Posted March 25, 2008 No I read it but it only makes sense to have the identical one you are using as primary. You have the rest of your system that you can use. If you have a alternate system than you have to have a complete system with you which sometimes just calls for more gear than you truly don't want to have. When i say system it also means everything in that system not just a body but maybe 10 lenses , flashes , batteries and all that goes with it. Makes no sense really to have one camera and all it's stuff than have another system with all it's stuff to back it up completely. Now if you have a different need like a DSLR for long stuff than you have that too. The point being you should have enough gear to go home with images and not lose a client in the process. Now reason i got strong about this, and Riccas can tell you and also Jamie since they shoot weddings . Is Pro's showing up with one camera and a couple lenses to do a wedding, you simply are nuts to even think about doing something like this and they see it everyday in there business. Little fact the most lawsuits against photographers is you guessed it wedding shooters and that number is HUGE compared to others in the industry . That fact alone speaks volumes of how bad it is out there Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted March 25, 2008 Share #46 Posted March 25, 2008 Excuse my brief answer: So?I do not mean to work without backup. Just that a second M8 is not the ONLY alternative. It seems that is getting hard to actually read the posts. Gus: I agree with you in your point that as long as you have a realiable backup system, it does not have to be the same as your main gear (whether you use M8s, D3s or 1Ds Mark IIIs). In my case, and because of the type of work I do, I'd rather have mulitple M8s since in the event of a failure I want to continue shooting without skipping a beat... Cheers, Riccis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted March 25, 2008 Share #47 Posted March 25, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Guy makes a great point... Can you imagine how much more it will cost me if I were to backup my M8 and fast Leica lenses with an equivalent Canon setup which will be made up of at least a Canon 1D MarkIII (although I'd rather have the 1Ds Mark III), a 24L, 50L and 85L? Also add to that the extra weight of this kit... And yes, I have been fortunate to never have to use a backup (either when I was shooting Canon or now with Leica), but if I arrive to one of my events with just one camera and it fails, I may as well shoot myself (just to give you an idea about some of the venues I shoot in, before I even set foot in the place I must carry a minimum $2,000,000 liability insurance) Cheers, Riccis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaurizio Posted March 25, 2008 Share #48 Posted March 25, 2008 Guy makes a great point... Can you imagine how much more it will cost me if I were to backup my M8 and fast Leica lenses with an equivalent Canon setup which will be made up of at least a Canon 1D MarkIII (although I'd rather have the 1Ds Mark III), a 24L, 50L and 85L? Also add to that the extra weight of this kit... And yes, I have been fortunate to never have to use a backup (either when I was shooting Canon or now with Leica), but if I arrive to one of my events with just one camera and it fails, I may as well shoot myself (just to give you an idea about some of the venues I shoot in, before I even set foot in the place I must carry a minimum $2,000,000 liability insurance) Cheers, Riccis I guess a 5D plus 24-70 F2.8L,m or a D300 + 17-55mm will serve as a good backup for MOST (I am not saying ALL, ok?) assignments and at a substantial less cost. This might not suit everyone, but can suit many. But I am offending the Leica gods by even suggesting this. Sorry, Oh mighty deities... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted March 25, 2008 Share #49 Posted March 25, 2008 Gus: You are correct, what you suggest will do for most folks. Once again, speaking for myself this set up will not work for me and my shooting style since f/2.8 is too slow for my needs and I also like to shoot wide open at very fast apertures... The look of my images will not be the same. I am not offended at all by any of your comments and thank you for your contributions to this thread. I see you are in Miami, maybe one day we can meet and hang out. Take care, Riccis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaurizio Posted March 25, 2008 Share #50 Posted March 25, 2008 Gus: You are correct, what you suggest will do for most folks. Once again, speaking for myself this set up will not work for me and my shooting style since f/2.8 is too slow for my needs and I also like to shoot wide open at very fast apertures... The look of my images will not be the same. I am not offended at all by any of your comments and thank you for your contributions to this thread. I see you are in Miami, maybe one day we can meet and hang out. Take care, Riccis Riccis, the mojitos are on me anytime. Just pm me. My point is that we should stop this Leica fundamentalism that hurts us more than it helps us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted March 25, 2008 Share #51 Posted March 25, 2008 I have a second and liked thatfact when I had to send my first in for calibration. Its a luxury and I also like to have one black and one silver. However I have to admit that I do not carry both as often as I thought I would. This is also caused by the fact, that nowadays I often carry a D3 + some lenses, and if I bring the M8 I usually want a compact small package and just bring the M8 and 2 lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 25, 2008 Share #52 Posted March 25, 2008 Gus: You are correct, what you suggest will do for most folks. Once again, speaking for myself this set up will not work for me and my shooting style since f/2.8 is too slow for my needs and I also like to shoot wide open at very fast apertures... The look of my images will not be the same. I am not offended at all by any of your comments and thank you for your contributions to this thread. I see you are in Miami, maybe one day we can meet and hang out. Take care, Riccis I absolutely agree and if I was not working in Pro situations than i may not have a second M8 but i do have a almost complete Nikon system now. I was speaking strictly from a Pro point of view in the last few posts . I did say earlier look at something that maybe different than the M8 or outside it's box for the hobbyist. i recommended looking at the D300 or E3 as something that may be a great backup and also a tool for macro, tele and such. I also agree your questions are very valid and your contributions are very welcome. There are just different things and type of shooters to consider. If i was a hobbyist i would look clearly at those choices that you folks have at your disposal. We don't as Pro's always have the options if you see what I am getting out. As primary system there just has to be 2 for Pro's but for the hobbyist you have all sorts of options from P&S, 4/3rds,M8's and DSLR's to pull from. But yes i bought a Nikon setup for outside the M8 box and it serves as a backup system too. Now do I get Mojitios too. LOL Gus believe me i am so far from being a Leica fundamentalist it would scare you. I would flip on a dime to another system if I thought there was something better, trust me I have done it 3 times already. i hold no candle to any OEM, but i do like Leica and do believe in there products. But they better keep giving me great product or i will move on just like anyone else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaurizio Posted March 25, 2008 Share #53 Posted March 25, 2008 Now do I get Mojitios too. LOL Gus believe me i am so far from being a Leica fundamentalist it would scare you. I would flip on a dime to another system if I thought there was something better, trust me I have done it 3 times already. i hold no candle to any OEM, but i do like Leica and do believe in there products. But they better keep giving me great product or i will move on just like anyone else. Guy, you and everyone who happens to be in Miami for a good time are welcome to mojitos and other nice drinks in our sunny Florida! The first one is on me. I did not have you in mind when I spoke about Leica fundamentalists. I, being a soccer fan, understand how deep feelings can go, but we need to keep a balance. Leica can, and should do better, by providing some badly needed functions that are firmware only, like you amongst others have rightly pointed out. While there is no arguing that a second body is indeed 'the' backup option, other cameras are just fine too, and might even bring some interesting options to the table, like a macro/micro capability, fast zoom, and AF for dim light. I still find the deepest flaws in the M8 are the slow wakeup time, the SD card access and reliability, the lack of a single button ISO change or AUTO-ISO (yes, I think that would be nice) and other minor usability enhancements. You have done a lot to help Leica realize of the shortcomings of the M8, and you should be praised for that. But those who despise and make public comments like the D3 or 1DsMkIII are 'bricks' or 'anchors', should really refrain from making those comments. They serve no purpose, generate animosity against all Leica users, and add no value. And they are just plain wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 25, 2008 Share #54 Posted March 25, 2008 Well I certainly agree and also would love to join you for cocktails when in town. I have to say just buying a Nikon D300 last week there are some very unique and interesting features that are and should be looked at in the industry. Yes there is too many bells and whistles on many of these camera's and some are pure gimmick BUT there still state of the art and lessons can be learned from them. I just said in another thread on my forum that I am turning more features off than on but most of us are manual folks and will do that no question we don't need everything these DSLR's have to offer but hell there are idea's to use and implement for Leica . All these camera's out there are valid data points for the industry. I may not like a lot of them but i respect what there companies are bringing to the public. I like there are a lot of parts out there and just take what you need and use that for yourself idea for leica. Leica needs to learn digital and we all agree they need to improve , no question about it and any Leica employee will say the same thing. They need to just get better. Just like anything else it takes time and dedication to get to those levels. I know there trying but they have stumbled some too. BTW great discussion Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Ortego Posted March 25, 2008 Share #55 Posted March 25, 2008 Ahh, a true David and Goliath story between pros and the “something else”. Where is the AFLAC duck when ya need it? I’m not only a novice or wantabee, but also a guy who loves a challenge. No, there is really no way I could rationalize a second camera although I will endure with my M8. Before buying this thing, I thought I was a fairly good photographer. Now I realize that I don’t know #$%^! It will indeed take more time before I get it right. Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaurizio Posted March 25, 2008 Share #56 Posted March 25, 2008 Ahh, a true David and Goliath story between pros and the “something else”. Where is the AFLAC duck when ya need it? I’m not only a novice or wantabee, but also a guy who loves a challenge. No, there is really no way I could rationalize a second camera although I will endure with my M8. Before buying this thing, I thought I was a fairly good photographer. Now I realize that I don’t know #$%^! It will indeed take more time before I get it right.Regards, Well, this will get me into more trouble. For those of you who happen to love the 28mm (no crop factor) focal length, and who like to shoot with sort of lots of light, consider the Sigma DP1. I have been playing with one, and now have mine on order, since I am IMPRESSED with the performance and ease of use. It makes a fine second body (not in a pro sense) for Leica fans. I am planning to take a few shots with the D3, Leica M8 and DP1 to post on this forum in the next weeks, all of them with 28mm as effective focal length, for you to compare. Which brings me to the point: Leica must generate a camera with a fixed focal length, less heavy, and maybe using its fantastic 28mm F2.8 asph completely integrated, a la Digital Leica CL. No cleaning sensors, live view, focus assist and F2.8-F11. For 2,000-3,000 it would be a huge hit, in my opinion. If the Dp1 is out of stock at $800, then $2000 for a Leica seems right, considering the brand value. For most Leica shooters, 28mm is a right compromise for a backup body, since at close distances you can take a couple of steps back and forth and it does the trick. Silent shutter, no mobile parts, drop the silly self-timer mode (or hide it in the menus), make it auto ISO from 160-1250, and I am on the list to buy it tomorrow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 25, 2008 Share #57 Posted March 25, 2008 It would be nice if leica had a step up camera leading to the M8 , something fixed lens . I have a feeling Photokinia will see a lot of stuff outside the R and M class. They need to get people in the door at the lower cost levels but still give them something good to work with. I think the Sigma Dp-1 is a good idea. I have a huge small sensor forum on my site all around the Ricoh gear , man these folks love them. And the images are really great. These camera's are just flat out fun to shoot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 25, 2008 Share #58 Posted March 25, 2008 Ahh, a true David and Goliath story between pros and the “something else”. Where is the AFLAC duck when ya need it? I’m not only a novice or wantabee, but also a guy who loves a challenge. No, there is really no way I could rationalize a second camera although I will endure with my M8. Before buying this thing, I thought I was a fairly good photographer. Now I realize that I don’t know #$%^! It will indeed take more time before I get it right.Regards, Maybe Daniel but to tell you the truth the M8 is a extremely great learning tool , i don't care what anyone says it's all on you to make great images and control how you work it. I have yet to see a better training tool in digital. You the user have to work to make images, i think many of us here from the old school are so happy with grew up with film and manual camera's. To me that was the best way to learn and grow, and the M8 follows that tradition of learning only updated. IMHO Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rweisz Posted March 25, 2008 Share #59 Posted March 25, 2008 I've been shooting digital since '99. The only things the M8 has taught me were how to keep mu bloodpressure under control while working around IR issues and WB issues and high-ISO-noise issues I left behind several generations of d-SLR ago. And finally, to keep my cool when the shutter blew after a fraction of the # of shots I've got on my freakin' REBEL Xti which is what I'm using while the M8 is spending a long, lesurely vacation in Germany. I used Leicas for years before digital, when I was shooting for various papers, so I appreciate where the rangefinder has advantages over SLR viewing. That to me is the only reason I stick it out with the M8. I'm really not interested in having a fun learning experience out of a camera and neither is my boss or clients. I need to deliver the goods, and the M8 has let me down on many occasions. Whereas a film Leica served me well for many years, which is to say I do know how to use a Leica/rangefinder, that's not the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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