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Guest Ridder Cornelius

I Have to express this!

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Guest Ridder Cornelius

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Sorry, have to note this, it’s not personal, it’s not aimed at anyone, it’s no more than a personal view upon 2-3 weeks of M8 forum participation.

 

It can’t be that the only way to make a successful entrance in to this forum is by sucking up to the long established group of “self proclaimed” experts, or according to some have more than 5xx number of posts or by noting that the M8 is the best thing since sliced bread from the start onwards.

 

Other than the fact that the forum is an interesting one, very lively and informative it is also very arbitrarily conservative in which there is definitely an undocumented pecking order of whom can say what and when and to whom. Newcomers get banned for merely defending themselves against prejudiced comments and accusations that no one in their right mind in “real-life” would take for granted.

 

Previous members having tried to express their concerns, doubts and critique towards either the Leica Corporation or the M8 product as such have been pestered away or have been driven to defend themselves in a manner causing them to initially be represented as outcast, being treated accordingly and in their defence against the well established “gravy-club” have been banned from participating.

 

I guess you all know what I’m getting at, even being a highly informative and even entertaining forum it leaves me a feeling of disgust participating, and having to choose my words very very carefully in order not to be openly blemished and therefore driving any thread to overall chaos. It seems that only the very few “happy chappies” can get away with this.

 

I have only been a “member” of this forum for two weeks or so but haven’t failed to see the structure needed in order to be accepted. According to some the M8 is the best thing since sliced bread, according to other a 5.000$ piece of agony supported by company whom actually doesn’t know what they are doing, I personally like my M8 although I do see the reason for complaint of many a user, personally I am not worried about but I can see why others are, and I can also see how these so called “complainers” are treated and apparently all in absolute OK status by forum management, or whatever the guardians of these places are called. This will eventually drive potentially interesting participants away and the Leica M8 forum will be nothing more than a club of old farts, congratulating each other on the purchase of this, that and the other and continuously commending each other for owning such a great set of stuff, day after day, weeks after week....

 

It would be nice to see this forum evolve into a nice one where everybody gets the/a chance to either proclaim the M8 as the greatest camera on earth, or the worst possible introduction since Stalinism.... but to be treated and welcomed equally.

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And in 2 weeks, this is your 2nd thread to explain the structure of the forum.

 

Another guy with an oversized ego thinking he knows it all and feeling the urge to share its important discoveries with the world.

And really do not understand why such an attitude is not really welcomed...

Pathetic.

 

P.S: can we expect the lecture once a week ? Is it some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder with you ?

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Post some shots in the Photo Forums - it might make you feel better

 

Yep!

It really works!

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Guest stnami
No, the less you say, the better the forum. Go post some pictures indeed
,,,yup that's what you should do Pascal.......November your last effort???

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It would be nice to see this forum evolve into a nice one where everybody gets the/a chance to either proclaim the M8 as the greatest camera on earth, or the worst possible introduction since Stalinism.... but to be treated and welcomed equally.

 

Well, as they said in the Simpsons, "Hillbillys would like to be called sons of the soil, but it ain't gonna happen".

 

It's a forum for Leica users, most of which are a pretty happy bunch until you pick on our date. Maybe not the best forum for commiserating. Dpreview forums seem to like this bickering, as does Photo.net.

 

Too much navel gazing!

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{snipped}

It would be nice to see this forum evolve into a nice one where everybody gets the/a chance to either proclaim the M8 as the greatest camera on earth, or the worst possible introduction since Stalinism.... but to be treated and welcomed equally.

 

Um, everyone does do this here, IMO.

 

I've never read so much extreme nonsense about a camera ever

Well, except for all the other expensive cameras out there LOL!!

 

What doesn't get tolerated very well here is someone completley new who hasn't contributed much of their time or energy into the forum completely disregarding netiquette, politeness or rational perspective.

 

Do any of these sound familiar in the last few days / weeks?

 

1) Calling happy M8 users "apologists" and "fanboys"

2) Calling people "pompous"

3) Saying Leica must be "insanely evil" (but stupid)

4) Complaining about specific defects as general defects, or taking reports of those defects out of context

5) Implying that people who like the system are idiots, or have too much money and should see the light about using something else

6) Negatively psychoanalysing people's motives, but then crying "foul" if their own motives or grasp of facts are questioned?

 

If you walked into a bar where people were having a polite drink, you'd have to have the emotional age of around 5 to start doing this.

 

You'd have to be even more stupid to expect everyone to just kind of not react to your incendiary statements

 

And yet many a new poster has done this exactly in the last couple of months.

 

"Leica's ripping us all off" "The M8 White Balance will never be fixed (d'oh!!)" "There won't be a new shutter at all"

 

Oddly enough, it coincides with a number of external folks truly making fun of us here who use this forum.. .

 

So, honestly, bring on the old farts, I say. At least we're polite, don't assume we know stuff when we don't, and don't name call first.

 

BTW, people here don't get banned defending themselves, either; in my experience they have to be pretty thoroughly nasty again and again to get banned.

 

Of course, as in any community--except the awful free-for-alls of dPreview and that ilk-- those that have contributed something beyond vitriol or opinion get cut a bit more slack. That's the way it goes.

 

But I've never seen anyone's comments, even vitriolic ones, automatically clamped down.

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Guest stnami

...stnami killed by car crossing the road ogling at a M8aite

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......I guess you all know what I’m getting at......

 

Not a bloody clue I'm afraid. Which is a shame because I love a good conspiracy and we've been a little short of them recently.

 

#1 (permalink)

Ridder Cornelius

Benutzer

 

Join Date: March 6th, 2008

 

Wow, I'm impressed; you worked all that stuff out in less than a week and without the trail of tears journey some of us had to take. Where were you when we really needed you? Oh well, you're with us now so we are going to be OK.

 

.............. Chris

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Guest rweisz

Well, being also somewhat of a newcomer, I can't disagree with much of what Cornelius said. I fully support that a newcomer shouldn't be allowed to be rude and disruptive. But from what I've seen, a couple of established members seem to have the freedom to be rude and offensive and personally attack anyone they want, which when you think about it, makes a sham of the forum rules and leads to the newcomers believing there is a double standard.

 

That said Cornelius, a forum is what it is allowed to be. I don't know why certain individuals are allowed to act they way they do, but it is clear those people are not going to be held to the forum rules and/or banned, or else it would've happened a long time ago. Eventually, what happens is the people with self-respect all go away, which includes a lot of the most informative and educational people. Then, not having anyone to pick on or belittle, the rude ones lose interest and leave too. Then what you have left is a ghost town with few new threads and little participation. That is what happened to the Leica forum at Photo.net. It wasn't overmoderation that killed it, that was just the last straw when the place was out of control. It was undermoderation when there were still informative, interesting people there, that were driven off by a handfull of people high on there own egos.

 

So you really have three options. One, learn who not to respond to and what not to say to bring yourself to their attention. Two, learn to swallow your pride and accept humiliation without responding in kind so they have no grounds to ban you. Or three, follow the eye-for-an-eye philosophy and get quickly banned but with your dignity intact. After all, it's just a camera forum, if you get banned from it it's not the end of the world.

 

The sad thing to me is that Dr. Kaufman reads this forum and feels that more of Leica's people should read it to get a better handle on problems that need to be solved for the company to survive. If all negativity and criticism is driven off the forum, all they will hear will be the songs of praise, and when sales falter and a product or program flops and puts the company back into bankruptcy, then what good have the praisers accomplished? Likewise if Kaufman & associates get fed up with the infantility and bickering, they may just stop reading it period.

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Makes one wonder. You seem to dislike what you saw in the past but still felt apropos to join.

 

Why, pray, why?

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Guest rweisz

In my case George, I read the forum back when I first got my M8 and while there were some of the same people acting-out, there was still so much great new information and helpfulness on a daily basis that in the overall it was worth it. I hadn't really been reading that much in the last couple of months. Right now the signal-to-noise ratio is much heavier on the noise than it ever was in the past.

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Nobody here is sacred, nobody is above criticism. It's an ecosystem, like any other community, net-based or otherwise. Nobody is better than anyone else.

 

In my opinion (and feel free to disagree) the biggest mistake made around here, again and again, is the posting of an opinion as if it is incontrovertible fact, then the hissy fits that erupt when someone dares to express an alternate viewpoint. I have never seen so many thin skins as seem to be all too common here in recent weeks. It should be entirely possible to have a reasoned debate without swinging handbags at every opportunity.

 

I operate a simple philosophy - you may hold an opposite viewpoint to me, but I shall defend to the last your right to do so and to express it. I simply expect the same courtesy in return. Masters of the sweeping generalisation, purveyors of unsubstantiated rumour as fact, poodlefakers, scoundrels, armchair marketeers, part-time CIOs and closed-minded, pompous egocentric windbags will either be ignored or lampooned without mercy.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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I would have said:

 

1. There is an enormous amount of criticism of Leica and all its products on this forum. There is also lots of praise. One must assume that posts accurately reflect the opinions of the posters.

 

2. I appreciate that there is little badgering of one another. This is a very civilized forum.

 

3. I happen to be a fan of Leica lenses and other stuff. Their stuff could use improvement. No news there. I continue to be amazed that Leica spends so much time analyzing what we have to say and responding to it and adapting their products and policies accordingly. Does this happen many places???

 

4. I have gained enormous assistance from the members of the Forum. They have saved my butt lots of times.

 

5. Welcome to all, especially those who OWN Leica stuff, take pix, and post them. If one comes to a day when there is nothing to learn, then "Pity the Fool."

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