stunsworth Posted March 10, 2008 Share #21 Posted March 10, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I such a case I would simply pick up a phone and call them Indeed, sometimes the simplest course of action is also the most effective. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 10, 2008 Posted March 10, 2008 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here Mr Kaufmann interview. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
innerimager Posted March 10, 2008 Share #22 Posted March 10, 2008 I found the interview to be refreshingly frank, as frank as such an interview can be. It bolsters my confidence in the lifespan of the M8. It sounds to me like improved framelines will be a sooner than later upgrade, and that's one I will jump at. Was anyone else a bit surprised to hear that the IR filters cost leica millions of Euros? Wow. best....Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalippe Posted March 10, 2008 Share #23 Posted March 10, 2008 I such a case I would simply pick up a phone and call them. It is one of the best companies to deal with like that I find.I had one repair gone wrong like that (on a Digilux2): a complaint got me a five-day turnaround, pick-up and delivered, an extra battery, a letter of apology and a little bag of sweets. Thanks for the suggestion Jaap. I'll call them to find out how to send in my M8 for expedited repair (poured red wine on it at a friend's wedding!). But it is too late for the Nocti. I ended up sending it to DAG to be calibrated, and it should be back today or tomorrow. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted March 10, 2008 Share #24 Posted March 10, 2008 If i had to sell my R primes due to Leica's (incredible) decision to make the R10 incompatible with existing lenses, i.e. with most of its customers, it would certainly not be to buy new ones afterwards and i suspect i'm not alone in this case. LCT, If I were invested in R gear, I'd have exactly the same reaction. Some years back when Contax introduced its new auto-focus SLR mount, that was the beginning of the end of Contax for me. But to be the devil's advocate, perhaps Leica doesn't care about its base of R customers. As Kaufmann said, most M8s were sold to those who already owned film Ms -- and there are far more M users than R users. Designing a new digital R for a small user base that clings to manual focus seems like a questionable investment. Leica's strategy may be to broaden its audience in the DSLR arena, which means it would need to introduce auto-focus technology. I won't speculate what that means for the R mount, but it would probably have an impact on the value of current R glass. (Sorry if this has been hashed over before.) Larry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseelig Posted March 10, 2008 Share #25 Posted March 10, 2008 Ad a vocal critic of the upgrade and Leica in general, I too was pleased with the interview, in particular that he listens to the critics on this forum. Nothing is more important then that in the life of any company. So all of us have a duty to give criticism when it is warranted. However we see it and not get tangled up in taking anything personally and no personal attacks we are talking about a company we all want to see do well. So I say it again the shutter upgrade is too high If canon do it for 400 with a 6 month warranty on a 1d series camera Leica should be able to do it far cheaper. UV IR filters should be sold at cost. But again I was happy what I read in the interview. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfalo Posted March 10, 2008 Share #26 Posted March 10, 2008 Yes, I was surprised not to see it here but I ran a search on handelsblatt and found nothing.My mistake. I don´t think so. It´s rather due to our dismal search function... It´t better to use Google News, just in case... yours Olaf Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsonkirk Posted March 10, 2008 Share #27 Posted March 10, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) As others have said, this is a deeply reassuring interview - in all respects except service. Companies sometimes don't know what the competition is doing or what the 'industry standard' might be. They establish an inefficient little bureaucracy for service, & their reputation is damaged thereby. You can see it by comparing Leica with Canon (regarding service, not corporate scale!). 1. Many M8 owners also own Canon DSLRs, & know that even without the professional level of service, turn-around time is about 1 week in the shop (+ shipping time). This sets a standard for consumers, & Leica seems to be clueless about what expectations might be. It's true that a small company will have more trouble dealing with a high volume of repairs - but it's also true that at a certain price level, customers expect a bit more. 2. In contrast to their camera service, Canon undermined its own entry into the wide-format printer market because of similar ignorance - not unlike Leica's - about customer service expectations. Most of Canon's new customers were used to Epson service, & Canon had no idea how good it was. Canon's printer manuals were inadequate, customers had to start their own Wiki to learn how to use their printers, & Canon sent an 'outsourced' company to repair printers over & over - whereas Epson promptly exchanged any malfunctioning 17" printers via 2-day air express & then refurbished them. Reviews & complaints quickly told the story: a great machine, but don't buy one because of inadequate service backup. At one point the Wiki moderator officially recommended not buying the products for this reason! Dr. Kaufmann seems like a frank & honest 'old school' European businessman with his eye well-trained to take the long view - just the opposite of most modern corporations. His comments on service were the only ones that seemed out of touch. I'm glad he & Leica's employees are taking note of user reactions! Kirk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdubois Posted March 10, 2008 Share #28 Posted March 10, 2008 Don't forget the service problem is mainly an USA problem - and it appears they are working on solving it very hard over there. This is probably off topic, I am ready to be flamed and I really don't want to offend but here goes my little rant anyway............... Is it truly a service problem or has it more to do with an intolerant and whinging attitude of people from English speaking nations? In the same way that anglo saxons will often respond to the question "how are you" with "not bad" whereas people of other nations might respond with "very well" or "really good today thankyou"; more and more I see a difference between the way Americans and Brits assess and judge an exceptional product which may have some flaws when compared to other nations. The M8 is an exceptional product with some irritating flaws. I think the Europeans are irritated by the flaws but not obsessed by them. For them the product remains exceptional; they accentuate the positives and put up with the negatives. Brits and Americans often do the reverse. I am quite annoyed about the M8 propensity towards sensor spots and yes the camera occasionally locks up and you have to quickly change batteries unexpectedly but the image files remain stunning and have that exceptional something extra. Of course there are some notable exceptions such as Sean Reid who applaud the product despite its few shortcomings. Of course in a perfect world all products would be perfect............ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted March 10, 2008 Share #29 Posted March 10, 2008 Is it truly a service problem or has it more to do with an intolerant and whinging attitude of people from English speaking nations? ... In contrast, I find many continental Europeans always feel indifferent toward other living beings ... their typical reaction is, if the bullet doesn't shoot me, then nobody has fired. I've always been told ... if you fall into the river Seine, make sure you cry help in French. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 10, 2008 Share #30 Posted March 10, 2008 In contrast, I find many continental Europeans always feel indifferent toward other living beings... Can't say that's been my experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ridder Cornelius Posted March 10, 2008 Share #31 Posted March 10, 2008 In contrast, I find many continental Europeans always feel indifferent toward other living beings ... Funny I have always had this thought about the Americans. But then being European myself I might have gotten use to the idea of not being fired at. Living in Europe also reduces the chance of being fired at greatly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdubois Posted March 10, 2008 Share #32 Posted March 10, 2008 I've always been told ... if you fall into the river Seine, make sure you cry help in French. ouch.... but I wouldn't necessarily rely on "au secours!" or "hilfe" or "aiuto" if ever you fell in the Mississippi or the Thames .... Dubois Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted March 11, 2008 Share #33 Posted March 11, 2008 This is probably off topic, I am ready to be flamed and I really don't want to offend but here goes my little rant anyway............... Is it truly a service problem or has it more to do with an intolerant and whinging attitude of people from English speaking nations? In the same way that anglo saxons will often respond to the question "how are you" with "not bad" whereas people of other nations might respond with "very well" or "really good today thankyou"; more and more I see a difference between the way Americans and Brits assess and judge an exceptional product which may have some flaws when compared to other nations. The M8 is an exceptional product with some irritating flaws. I think the Europeans are irritated by the flaws but not obsessed by them. For them the product remains exceptional; they accentuate the positives and put up with the negatives. Brits and Americans often do the reverse. I am quite annoyed about the M8 propensity towards sensor spots and yes the camera occasionally locks up and you have to quickly change batteries unexpectedly but the image files remain stunning and have that exceptional something extra. Of course there are some notable exceptions such as Sean Reid who applaud the product despite its few shortcomings. Of course in a perfect world all products would be perfect............ Many years ago I read an article about consumer demographics that compared Japanese, German and American consumer expectations. In short researchers found that the expectations of advanced products is quite different in each market. German users were interested in products that required "learning" to master. They would take the time to read the instructions and enjoyed mastering the details. Japanese consumers were most interested in cutting edge technology. They enjoyed the newest products even if they had some early production flaws. American consumers were "users" of products. They had a low tolerance for product failures but also demanded advanced products that could be used without much instruction. Over the years I've always thought of this when I loaded my film M cameras. As we know there are many strains of advice about the best way to load your M reliably. In the end I found that if I just followed the instructions precisely it never failed! It took some self retraining of this American to admit that the instructions were right! Today I see this among M8 users, particularly regarding RAW conversion, light metering and firmwear updates. Following instructions is important with this German product! To bring this back to topic I must say that when I contacted Leica personally they have ALWAYS been outstanding. I don't send emails, I call or write a letter. I treat the people on the phone with respect and they treat me the same way. Leica customers are perhaps the toughest to satisfy in the world. They certainly have unrealistic expectations of their purchase, and because of the high price many will NEVER be satisfied. Good interview and a good sign for the company future! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wag Posted March 11, 2008 Share #34 Posted March 11, 2008 I'm very glad to have read read the Kaufman interview. The man has the right approach for this company at this point in time. His comment about going to the head of a given department with a complaint, since that's where the buck stops, is an appropriate answer. Obviously we'd all like line employees to do everything correctly the first time, but life's not that way. Kaufman maintains Leica ultimately gets it right and I for one am willing to give him some time. Wag Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted March 11, 2008 Share #35 Posted March 11, 2008 This is probably off topic, I am ready to be flamed and I really don't want to offend but here goes my little rant anyway............... Is it truly a service problem or has it more to do with an intolerant and whinging attitude of people from English speaking nations? Well, I won't bother commenting on racism or nationalism and won't flame you either, but here are some facts. My Honda Element cost $21,000 and has never had a problem which could not be fixed by a dealer in my hometown within two days. My $1,800 Apple MacBook Pro has never had a problem which required me to pay for shipping, and has never had a problem which required more than 10 days turnaround. My Nikon F100 has been serviced twice. On both occasions Nikon provided me with a print-at-home shipping label which charged the shipping to Nikon. In both cases the camera was returned within 10 days. I lost more buttons on a custom-tailored $150 shirt than the tailor had provided replacements for. A phone call resulted in the tailor shipping me replacement buttons for free and paying for the (overnight) shipping at their own expense. I have NEVER owned ANY product at ANY price which required me to pay for shipping in order to wait for two months for a repair - except the M8. I've never had a product of any type, from any manufacturer, in any country, repaired by a manufacturer whose service was worse. I've never sent a product for repair and been unable to determine where it is, when the repair is scheduled to be performed, or when the product is scheduled to be returned to me - except the M8. Leica's service is simply terrible by any standard. It needs to be improved. This is true for speakers of any language, including German. The M8, despite its faults, is a wonderful camera, which I love and intend to keep using. I hope Leica improves the service. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdubois Posted March 11, 2008 Share #36 Posted March 11, 2008 Well, I won't bother commenting on racism or nationalism and won't flame you either, but here are some facts. My Honda Element cost $21,000 and has never had a problem which could not be fixed by a dealer in my hometown within two days. My $1,800 Apple MacBook Pro has never had a problem which required me to pay for shipping, and has never had a problem which required more than 10 days turnaround. My Nikon F100 has been serviced twice. On both occasions Nikon provided me with a print-at-home shipping label which charged the shipping to Nikon. In both cases the camera was returned within 10 days. I lost more buttons on a custom-tailored $150 shirt than the tailor had provided replacements for. A phone call resulted in the tailor shipping me replacement buttons for free and paying for the (overnight) shipping at their own expense. I have NEVER owned ANY product at ANY price which required me to pay for shipping in order to wait for two months for a repair - except the M8. I've never had a product of any type, from any manufacturer, in any country, repaired by a manufacturer whose service was worse. I've never sent a product for repair and been unable to determine where it is, when the repair is scheduled to be performed, or when the product is scheduled to be returned to me - except the M8. Leica's service is simply terrible by any standard. It needs to be improved. This is true for speakers of any language, including German. The M8, despite its faults, is a wonderful camera, which I love and intend to keep using. I hope Leica improves the service. You have clearly led an enchanted life. My experience of service from large business has at times differed from yours. Be that as it may, your comparison of Leica with Honda and Apple is in my opinion at the root of the discussion. It would be best to compare Leica with a like sized company such as for example TVR which make wonderful cars of charachter and performance but of often questionable reliability. People who buy TVR will put up with the negatives because they really want the charachter and performance of this vehicle. If they wanted a good, reliable but unexceptional car then they too might opt for a Honda. Now don't get me wrong because I think Honda is a fantastic company but my point is that if you CHOOSE to buy into Leica then you must be prepared to also accept the disadvantages of dealing with a small company; and a comapny which has chosen to manufacture a product which is truly unique and now, after the withdrawal of the Epson, the only one of its kind on the market. Yes, the M8 was released with flaws but Leica has addressed these with free IR filters and a rare upgrade path which secures its future. There have been mistakes but they are being addressed and Mr Kaufman seems to be the right man for the job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 11, 2008 Share #37 Posted March 11, 2008 I'm very glad to see that there is a hint of a lower cost M-mount camera (digital CL). I believe this is of the upmost importance for the survival of Leica. They need a tiered product line, like everyone else in the camera business. Personally I don't even care if this camera is not made in Germany, as long as the quality is as it should be. If they price it at $3000 or less they will sell them by the boat load. I also believe they should do what they can to reduce the price of the M8, even if it is their top of the line model. Regardless of it's quirks it is a good camera, but at $5500 it is overpriced in comparison to other bodies in it's price category. Another breath of fresh air is that is sounds like they are looking for a solution to the inaccuracy of the framelines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 11, 2008 Share #38 Posted March 11, 2008 I've always been told ... if you fall into the river Seine, make sure you cry help in French. Wrong! If you cry "au secours!" you will drown. The thing to cry is "au feu!" which means "fire!" That will bring people running.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB Posted March 11, 2008 Share #39 Posted March 11, 2008 I a complaint got me a five-day turnaround, pick-up and delivered, an extra battery, a letter of apology and a little bag of sweets. The timely resolution of a complaint, particularly when accompanied by evidence of a personal touch, can earn for a company a customer for life. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted March 11, 2008 Share #40 Posted March 11, 2008 .. I really don't want to offend.......Is it truly a service problem or has it more to do with an intolerant and whinging attitude of people from English speaking nations? ..... Europeans... accentuate the positives and put up with the negatives. Brits and Americans often do the reverse. ....... Well I'll call your bluff even if others treat you with a politeness you do not deserve in this instance. Yes there really is a service problem, and many reports on this forum substantiate the fact. Do you believe those reports of appalling service were imagined? The service issue is costing Leica a great deal in terms of goodwill and product attractiveness to potential customers, in particular to future customers such as professionals. For Leica's sake, it has to be radically improved and speeded up. From this particular 'Brit's' perspective; manufacturers who do not concentrate their best efforts on good service are gambling their company's future. I believe that Leica has been playing that dangerous game. I would respect your post more had you declared that you did want to be offensive; because in that much you were successful. Soppily claiming a passive-aggressive's safe shelter with 'I really don't want to offend' and then proclaiming that those you disagree with are 'intolerant and whinging' does not benefit your argument. You hide your identity and wanted to be offensive and you were, at least be honest about it. Britain and the US have both lost a great deal of it's manufacturing, maybe those Brits and Americans you deride have a little observational experience of why that manufacturing was lost. The M8 is an exceptional product with some irritating flaws Well yes it is, and all those of us who bought into the M8 did so wishing the company well. But from my perspective, it is also equally true that the M8 is an irritating product with some exceptional flaws. Despite their well meaning intentions, apologists for Leica [and you seem to be another one] do not help Leica they hold it back. When I bought my M8 the company felt close to bankruptcy and might have gone the way of the British motorcycle industry and other British manufacturing. Leica needs modernisers on it's side, not apologists. Oh yes, by the way; Britain is in Europe. We did not sign up to the political insanity of Federalised Europe, but we truly are Europeans. ................. Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.