Eoin Posted March 10, 2008 Share #121 Posted March 10, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Having the camera do time cosuming re-calibration is not a good solution for those on assignment or in most professional cases. I can give a host of cases where this would cause logistical problems for a traveling pro. Deep cycling should be a feature in the charger. Also, given the inherent temperamental nature of the M8 as it is, I don't think it is very wise to subject the camera to anymore wear than it already goes through. You don't need to do this every day, perhaps once in 3 months for heavy use or once in 6 months, I don't even know if you need to do it more than once, but your battery gauge and battery life compared to the gauge will give a good indication. Let me put it another way, you may not need to do this at all, but if your having problems like I was with apparently full batteries not lasting after the first bar disappeared, then this method seemed to cure the problem. I don't think it's deep cycling the battery, more calibrating the battery meter to the battery. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 10, 2008 Posted March 10, 2008 Hi Eoin, Take a look here M8 'Back to reality'. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
RSL Posted March 10, 2008 Share #122 Posted March 10, 2008 Eoin, I did not realize that the point of draining the battery in-camera was to calibrate the body and battery to one another. I figured the point was to reset something internal to the battery. Are you sure this is the fact Eoin? If so, does it imply that someone with two bodies must keep of track of which battery was drained in which body, and only use batteries with the appropriate body? My current practice is to use the first battery I grab in whatever body needs it. Everyone on this thread needs to go to Welcome to Battery University and read the information there on lithium-ion batteries. Li-Ion batteries shouldn't be fully discharged frequently -- at least if you want them to last for a while. They much prefer a frequent topping off. A Li-Ion battery has no memory effect at all. On the other hand, there's an effect called "digital memory" that can reduce the ability of the camera's "fuel gauge" accurately to reflect the battery's real charge level. With a good camera-charger system like the ones on the Nikon D2X and D3, the camera can tell you when the battery needs to be re-calibrated for the fuel gauge, and the charger has a button you press to carry out the calibration. In the absence of that kind of capability all you can do to calibrate the battery is discharge it in the camera as far as the camera will let you do that. Li-Ion batteries have circuits in them to prevent a deep discharge that can kill the battery or the kind of overcharge that can cause the battery to burst into flames. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 10, 2008 Share #123 Posted March 10, 2008 Hmmm I'm an amateur too, and I have had two cameras and I think six batteries from the beginning. I admire the minimalistic approach, but when I crashed one camera in the middle of Africa, I was very glad to have a second. As for batteries, I think to risk carrying a dead piece of metal instaed of a camera for the lack of a relatively cheap piece of gear is unwise. I would be seriously annoyed by draining a battery and losing the rest of a photo-opportunity. Jaap, I can't avoid replying to this one. You're right. No one should go on any kind of shoot without backup. You do it. I do it. Everyone should do it. But that's not the point. Andy's talking about a situation where the one, absolutely unrepeatable shot gets missed because of a camera malfunction. If that ever happened to me I'd immediately either junk the camera or sell it. I miss enough of those shots due to operator error. I can't tolerate even one due to equipment failure. The equipment failed. That's all there is to it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share #124 Posted March 10, 2008 Jaap, I can't avoid replying to this one. You're right. No one should go on any kind of shoot without backup. You do it. I do it. Everyone should do it. But that's not the point. Andy's talking about a situation where the one, absolutely unrepeatable shot gets missed because of a camera malfunction. If that ever happened to me I'd immediately either junk the camera or sell it. I miss enough of those shots due to operator error. I can't tolerate even one due to equipment failure. The equipment failed. That's all there is to it. Russel you hit the nail on the head..... andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 10, 2008 Share #125 Posted March 10, 2008 Well your both correct. One should always have backup no matter what and in Andy's case he is doing the right thing and send it in , something is wrong it seems with his. And it should not have failed But I will go back to batteries if in doubt this is the first place i look. Been down this road with the M8 and batteries and this thread has reminded me to or encouraged me to deep cycle all 6 batteries. i had some real failures in Moab doing the workshop and the cold. My batteries are old and been overcharged to many times and frankly who knows how long they really last. After 30 k in images and countless recharging i feel i am really on the edge with the life of mine. Most people don't have nearly this amount of load on them so don't want the sky is falling syndrome but I am going to do this today and just give them a good recycle which i have not done in a VERY long time. Maybe a good reminder for all of us to think about this. If it works great if not I will just replace them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalippe Posted March 10, 2008 Share #126 Posted March 10, 2008 Everyone on this thread needs to go to Welcome to Battery University and read the information there on lithium-ion batteries. Li-Ion batteries shouldn't be fully discharged frequently -- at least if you want them to last for a while. They much prefer a frequent topping off. A Li-Ion battery has no memory effect at all. On the other hand, there's an effect called "digital memory" that can reduce the ability of the camera's "fuel gauge" accurately to reflect the battery's real charge level. With a good camera-charger system like the ones on the Nikon D2X and D3, the camera can tell you when the battery needs to be re-calibrated for the fuel gauge, and the charger has a button you press to carry out the calibration. In the absence of that kind of capability all you can do to calibrate the battery is discharge it in the camera as far as the camera will let you do that. Li-Ion batteries have circuits in them to prevent a deep discharge that can kill the battery or the kind of overcharge that can cause the battery to burst into flames. Russell, That looks like a great resource. Thanks for posting. But there are many articles there, so even if I diligently read them at a reasonable pace, it might be a while before I know the answer to my question. So at the risk of appearing (or perhaps actually being) lazy, do you know the answer to my question? If I drain: o Drain battery A in body 1 o Drain battery B in body 2. And I want the camera to accurately display the battery state, am I safe using battery A in body 2 and/or battery B in body 1? Or do I need to stick with each battery in the camera in which it was drained? Thanks! David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 10, 2008 Share #127 Posted March 10, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Russell, That looks like a great resource. Thanks for posting. But there are many articles there, so even if I diligently read them at a reasonable pace, it might be a while before I know the answer to my question. So at the risk of appearing (or perhaps actually being) lazy, do you know the answer to my question? If I drain: o Drain battery A in body 1 o Drain battery B in body 2. And I want the camera to accurately display the battery state, am I safe using battery A in body 2 and/or battery B in body 1? Or do I need to stick with each battery in the camera in which it was drained? Thanks! David, Unfortunately, I don't know the answer. I do know that with my D2X and D3 the camera will tell me if the battery needs calibration to work properly with the fuel gauge. I can switch batteries back and forth between the cameras and not have to be concerned about that. But when the camera can't tell you, I'm not sure. I suspect that cycling the battery will do the job for both bodies, but again, I'm not sure. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 10, 2008 Share #128 Posted March 10, 2008 {snipped}But that's not the point. Andy's talking about a situation where the one, absolutely unrepeatable shot gets missed because of a camera malfunction. If that ever happened to me I'd immediately either junk the camera or sell it. {snipped}. So Russell, you wouldn't have the camera fixed instead? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 10, 2008 Share #129 Posted March 10, 2008 So Russell, you wouldn't have the camera fixed instead? I'd have the camera fixed if I needed to do that before I sold it, but I'd surely sell it. If the camera were something substantially less than a six-grand investment I'd just junk it. I'd never, never, try to take another shot with that camera -- at least not a critical shot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 10, 2008 Share #130 Posted March 10, 2008 I'd have the camera fixed if I needed to do that before I sold it, but I'd surely sell it. If the camera were something substantially less than a six-grand investment I'd just junk it. I'd never, never, try to take another shot with that camera -- at least not a critical shot. Ok--that's honest. But it's not like my 1ds2 never failed me on the job: it cost me double what my M8 cost and it truly scrambled files all the time at one point Though I know lots of shooters for whom a 1ds2 was a "little camera" who scrapped them as a consequence, I'm personally glad Canon fixed the problem, because in all other ways the 1ds2 was completely and totally reliable. So I'm hoping 1) Leica fixes people's cameras when they're defective 2) analyses defect trends to point at potential firmware or hardware issues on a monthly basis. Given that they do number 1, I'm pretty sure they do number 2 as well, and the M8 will become a better, and better, camera platform over time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted March 10, 2008 Share #131 Posted March 10, 2008 Ok--that's honest. But it's not like my 1ds2 never failed me on the job: it cost me double what my M8 cost and it truly scrambled files all the time at one point Though I know lots of shooters for whom a 1ds2 was a "little camera" who scrapped them as a consequence, I'm personally glad Canon fixed the problem, because in all other ways the 1ds2 was completely and totally reliable. So I'm hoping 1) Leica fixes people's cameras when they're defective 2) analyses defect trends to point at potential firmware or hardware issues on a monthly basis. Given that they do number 1, I'm pretty sure they do number 2 as well, and the M8 will become a better, and better, camera platform over time. Jamie, I really hope you're right. I want to see Leica stay in business, and I very much want a reliable M9. But at this point I wouldn't touch the M8 with a barge pole. I came within a few minutes of buying one last year in January, but now I'm soooo... glad I didn't. I know the camera makes very excellent files. Jaap was good enough to upload several .DNGs for me to download, and I spent some time in Photoshop CS2 with them. They're very, very good. Certainly as good as the files from my D2X, though probably not quite as good as the ones from my recently purchased D3. But I do a lot of shooting where there's no chance to go back and re-do the shot I just missed. I've never had a failure with any of my Nikons, even after I dumped my D2X down a short flight of sidewalk steps and had it hit the pavement hard enough to total the lens. I was able to put another lens on the camera and go on shooting -- after I got the local firestation to swab the gravel out of my forehead. I do a lot of street shooting, and a rangefinder is the perfect tool for that. But not with a camera I can't depend on. "All other ways" just doesn't quite get the job done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rweisz Posted March 10, 2008 Share #132 Posted March 10, 2008 Ok--that's honest. But it's not like my 1ds2 never failed me on the job: it cost me double what my M8 cost My M8 costed me $4900 (more if I add all the IR filters), my1Ds2 was $8K. Did you get your M8 used or did you get ripped off big-time on the Canon? BTW mine never did that but the mirror flipper broke. (OTOH CPS had it back to me in a week, something you could only dream about with a Leica. ) So I'm hoping 1) Leica fixes people's cameras when they're defective 2) analyses defect trends to point at potential firmware or hardware issues on a monthly basis. +1!!! Given that they do number 1, I'm pretty sure they do number 2 as well My experience with Leica-USA's service department is that they did #2 on my gear and #1 on me. If you know what I mean. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted March 10, 2008 Share #133 Posted March 10, 2008 I think the M8 is getting more stable. It's unfortunate that some of us had to suffer through it ... and suffer through that which is yet to come. With that in mind, not having a longer warranty is worrisome. It is one of the reasons I really do not want them to divert attention to a M9 or whatever. Get this camera rock solid. I personally do not need more than what it can do. Forget the bells and whistles ... for most rangefinder users that's never been what the M was about anyway. The M name conjures up certain expectations. One of the chief expectations has always been trust, even confidence. Digital has put a crimp in that. So, IMO, the biggest strategic mistake Leica made was not anticipating that and being ready to expedite needed fixes or adjustments even if they didn't know exactly what they may be. It was inevitable. My expectations have also been set by other platforms. I've owned and extensively used every Canon digital camera since the 30D. I've not sent one back for repair except the 1DMK3 for the Blue Dot fix which really didn't matter to me nor interrupt a shoot. 4 days total door to door at their expense. Go Leica, go! Tweak this camera and continue stabilizing it. Fix your repair service abilities fast. And if you are reading this Mr. Leica, get me my 3 lenses back from Germany that you've had almost longer than I have ... I'm a working stiff, and the M camera has part of my approach for decades, Please? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted March 11, 2008 Share #134 Posted March 11, 2008 My M8 costed me $4900 (more if I add all the IR filters), my1Ds2 was $8K. Did you get your M8 used or did you get ripped off big-time on the Canon? BTW mine never did that but the mirror flipper broke. (OTOH CPS had it back to me in a week, something you could only dream about with a Leica. ){snipped}. Well, since you asked, my 1ds2, not long after it came out in Canada, cost $11K CAD at Vistek in Toronto. Canon fixed the "I'm going to eat your files" problem with the 1ds2 by firmware about 5 months after I bought it; I couldn't use it professionally before the fix. The price probably seems high because at that point the Canadian dollar was oh, just north of the Peso at that point, and so 8K US would be about right. Just about 18 months later, my M8 was almost exactly half at $5300 CAD, and I got (eventually) two free filters, and as a lot of people here know I shot the M8 happily without filters for a long while. I still do from time to time. As for service, here in Canada Kindermann has always turned around my Leica M stuff in a week or less, and in less than two weeks for my damaged R9 / DMR (I did it--accident) to come back from NJ. Way, way back in its life my M8 needed a wheel fixed and that got turned around in about a week by NJ as well. That was a long time ago now, though. I have no idea what NJ service is like these days. I've had "fine" experiences with CPS Canada, but so far they're much slower than Kindermann for adjustments and so on. Now--lenses going to Solms. Yikes. Marc--I feel for you. I really do. There has to be a way to improve throughput in the repair / configuration channel, and I hope Leica gets better in that regard sooner rather than later. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oronet commander Posted October 19, 2008 Share #135 Posted October 19, 2008 I've come to this thread after a similar incident with a 15-day old M8. I was trying self-timer and continuous shoot mode, and after four frames my camera died to my surprise and fear. The battery indicator had one line (supossedly 50-25%) but I prayed for being a case of empty battery as it ended up being the case. Only 131 shoots per charge (yes, it was the first charge) and a great scare... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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