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pascal_meheut

Making the forum more useful

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This thread is deteriorating to an attack on individual posters and a bit of acrimony. Which is a pity, because it obscures Pascal's original point. It is not about trolling and moaning (well, maybe a bit as well, but not mainly) it is about the subjects of the threads. Most of us are here because of our photography with our Leica's. And though we may enjoy, or in the worst case, tolerate, the occasional thread about Leica, their policies and plans for the future, and the occasional "I wish" thread, this should not take over the forum. I read Pascal's OP as a call for a return to our core interest.

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Guest stnami

Strange......... the original poster attacked an individual ...........room for thought or is it the pack mentality coming into play?

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The M8 is a very controversial camera, perhaps the most such camera by Leica, ever.

 

And with this there is passion, sometimes in a positive tone, other times at the tail end of a frustrated thought. Passion is human nature, that will never change and the outcome varies widely from person to person.

 

While a lot of folks on here have chimed in and said that the M8 is not perfect, I think what many fans of it fail to realize is that in terms of what most would expect from Leica and from any camera maker for that matter, it is actually deeply flawed. Speaking from a purely practical standpoint as a professional and a consumer, I would have to form this opinion as well.

 

But, the camera does work. When one gets around it's flaws, it works quite well. And thank god for that because if the M8 were not as good as it is, a giant wooden stake could very well have been driven into the heart of the Leica camera devision.

 

So what Leica does in the next 12-18 months is mission critical for the company, perhaps more so than prior to the release of the M8. Some of us take this very serious and very personal. I get personal with my gear, sure, they are tools, but after awhile, I develop a working relationship with a tool and it simply gets personal.

 

That is what has happened with my use of Leica equipment, right or wrong, I take it personal. My livelyhood, my career and my future depend on the decisions I make in what I choose to use in putting forth my vision.

 

So what I am trying to say is that the tone of this forum is not any different than any other. Leica is not better than anyone, so the threads that grace the forums are not to be held to any higher standard. If Leica would have put out a flawless product, then this thread and many others damning the M8 would never have been posted in the first place.

So the signal to noise ratio on the forums might just be comensurate to the camera it self.

 

Normally, I spend very little time on here because it usually does not affect my relationship with my gear all that much. What people think or do on here has very little bearing on how I feel about using my M8. What Leica tells me is going on in upgrades ( or not ) does have an affect.

 

They send me a letter, I take it personal.

 

The Leica forums are no different than any other forums out there, you are going to have the same kind of people show up no matter what you do, especially with a camera as controversial as the M8.

 

So read what you want to read, but don't take it personal.

 

And by the way, I am the administrator of my own forum too on my Kodachrome site. I will only moderate when things get ugly....and we all know what ugly is in terms of a forum.

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The problem is indeed typical of internet forums. One of the 'problems' is anonymity, and some for some people trolling on the internet is their hobby.

 

The occassional disagreement is to be expected and often they arise from misunderstandings - the use of certain words, punctuation, interpretation of a remark which is mostly down to different cultures/languages.

 

One answer is to make this a subscription site, and posters are identified by their name. Trolls aren't usually willing to pay for their hobby, or willing to identify themselves. The downside is of course that having to pay even a nominal charge will result in less members of the site and therefore less input.

 

Given that it isn't a significant problem in the overall scheme of things I think I'm happy just to scroll on past the trolls and ignore them if they try to provoke a reaction.

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Strange......... the original poster attacked an individual ...........room for thought or is it the pack mentality coming into play?

 

Not in his original post, Imants.

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Guest stnami

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Not in his original post, Imants.

So what..... later on in the thread attitudes change

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In another thread someone asked "what have you learned here ?".

 

Well, so many things I will not list them but this is becoming harder and harder.

 

Pascal, there are some things I don´t like here as well. But on the other hand I`d guess that 50% of your feeling (probably more) is not due to any changes in the forum but due to your changing experience. The longer you´re a member, it becomes harder to find something really new to you. The marginal return of new posts are becoming smaller and smaller, at least from your own perception. It´s what economists call the law of diminishing returns. I made the same experience in a forum about travelling by bicycle.

We all have to live with this, I´m afraid.

Yours Olaf

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Guest Cordell

 

I'm pretty surprised how many angry people there are here. Seems that if we can afford to spend $5k on a camera we are doing pretty well in life

 

I'm surprised you're surprised. The OP repeatedly insults other members in a blatant and cartoonishly-arrogant manner (as I likened before, to the way pro wrestlers mouth off at each other on TV), insinuating that they are lying about their credentials, and that their expressions of opinion over failed M8's, poorly-adjusted lenses, bad service, or Leica's self-destructive management decisions, are nothing more than consequences of mental illness. Not only is he not sanctioned and his offensive posts go un-deleted to stand forever in posterity, a moderator chimes in castigating those who complain about that individual, for their off-line language that upsets his personal esthetic.

 

You nailed it Dan, if we can afford an M8 (or two) and Leica lenses, we're undoubtedly not the mentally-deficient, emotionally-crippled morons the OP continually accuses us of being.

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...a moderator chimes in castigating those who complain about him for using language off-line that upsets his personal esthetic.

 

Quite right too, there is absolutely no need to use foul language off line to a mod. Whoever wrote whatever they wrote should be grateful that Erl is enough of a gentleman not to publish the details in open forum.

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Guest Cordell

The gentlemanly thing to do would have been to express his disdain to that individual off-line.

 

However, you perhaps inadvertently distracted from the crucial issue, which is that the off-line complaints obviously upset the moderator more than the incessant on-line violations of forum rules and etiquette by the OP, which unless I am mistaken, it is a moderator's duty to sanction and remove, and which TTBOMK is not being done.

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I can't imagine caring enough about anything on the internet to start cursing other posters. If I get miffed I'll try to get a few days of fresh air and forget the issue.

 

Regarding moderation: It does seem that these forums are like a pool full of kids...It only takes one kid to make a poop and the rest have to go screaming for the shore! The effects of only a small minority of posters can have a large impact on the whole.

 

It's pretty funny to combine the typical demographic of the Leica owner with all this rancor. I'd wager most of us are too broken down and out of breath to ever have these kinds of conversations in person!

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Guest Cordell
I'd wager most of us are too broken down and out of breath to ever have these kinds of conversations in person!

 

Even the WWF wrestlers with their steroid-enhanced bodies possess, I am fairly certain, more intelligence than to bray their cartoonish, over-the-top-arrogant insults when the cameras aren't rolling.

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I just finished my morning coffee..

 

We have 9 inches of new snow on top of the ski mountain and it is still falling.

 

So ya'll just continue to be the source of your own problems, excuses, etc. and I'll stuff my M3/50 collapsable in my jacket and go rip it up all day.

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As others noted, organization will not make this a more useful place. It is, indeed, largely typical of photography forums on the Internet today. Today there are a tremendous number of people whose primary relationship with photography consists of reading and typing rather than shooting, seeing, and editing their own images. The advent of digital photography created the "perfect storm" for this phenomenon as it lured a tidal wave of keyboard-bound young male computer technicians into the photographic hobby.

 

To answer the question I posed in another thread, this is a useful place to visit briefly and only occasionally for M8 news. But, like all Internet forums, it is sure an unproductive, and sometimes and emotionally corrosive, waste of time to become a full-time resident here, at least if one's genuine interest is in photography and photographic arts.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Glad I slept through 90 percent of this thread . Who the heck are we talking about here ,oh never mind . Better off with my nap on this one. Some of us have to work tonight. LOL

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I was subject to many attacks because I do not like how leica is dealing with the upgrade and the over the top costs. I had one guy send me a private message letting me know why I was being attacked, when I was just angry with a corporation,and that I deserved it. He was surprised that I objected to his assesment and called me an expletive deleted. I brought in a point of view from Bill Pierce and a moderator attacked Pierce as being past it. Have any of us made the amount of contributions to this world as Peirce, remember his series the children of war. Anybody saying a bad word about a company should not have attacks made on them. As far as being able to afford a 5 grand camera some of us make alot of sacrafices for that camera. And popflash is now selling uv ir filters 46 mm for 119 without shipping.

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The gentlemanly thing to do would have been to express his disdain to that individual off-line.

 

However, you perhaps inadvertently distracted from the crucial issue, which is that the off-line complaints obviously upset the moderator more than the incessant on-line violations of forum rules and etiquette by the OP, which unless I am mistaken, it is a moderator's duty to sanction and remove, and which TTBOMK is not being done.

 

Because Cordell has opted NOT to receive PM's or emails, my attempts to communicate with him privately are reduced to publically posting my response to him here, as follows:

 

Cordell, fortunately we live in a different time zone for which I am pleased. That tends to separate me from a lot of useless flack, such as the the above dissertation. The rest I endeavour to ignore. Most of my energies are directed at productive work. Acting as Moderator on this Forum is a side issue for me and carries responsiibility that is, by definition, in fallible hands. Those hands are also powerful.

 

You have been judged to have crossed the line too far too often. Not debatable. You are warned, continue in your present style and you will be banned. Not debatable! I think that is pretty clear. Any attack, or arrogance or other slight on me as Moderator is ingnored totally at the personal level because I don't give a damn, but respect for the office of Moderator is demanded.

 

None of the above is negotiable. In my own time I will do as promised if and when I choose. Your view on any of this will not be considered until such time as you are able to demonstrate acceptable behehaviour, of which the Admin and the Mods alone will be the judge.

 

Meanwhile, you are one click away from banned.

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