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pascal_meheut

Making the forum more useful

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Guest guy_mancuso

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Okay first off this is not a promotional post . Please it is not but just a different way.

 

Well most of you know Jack and i have our own forum. Yes it is very small 700 members and much much easier to handle as a admin. person. This site is 20k strong and first off much more difficult to moderate, so first off give the mods. a hand of applause here. Not a easy task in any fashion and owning a site i know this all to well. Now we deal with this in a simple way and may not be the best way or the most popular but the members understand the rules. It simply is a no insult rule period. The idea and concept is treat everyone with respect or your handed you head on a plate or a yellow card or something. You will get banned for a day or longer. It is more a members call with complaints and than also edit and delete if something is way out of line. Maybe harsh in some ways but it works and people like it this way. Yes unfortunetly we have had to ban people , not many but more than i would like too but members complained and we have to make a call. 3 I think. Anyway much easier to do this in a small forum and much tougher here on the LUF at 20 k and would be very hard to do here. Now please i don't need 20k members too. LOL But you can help here by reporting bad posts and at some point if enough folks complain about someone they will do something. It's Andreas place so that level is his call and we need to respect that also. Yes you get a lot of freedom here but there is a point of no return also , so you the members needs to help control that and report posts in a friendly way to the mods to keep an eye on things. If everyone does there part than things will improve. The trick is you need to care first of all and need to be the solution and not the cause.

 

We all have our moments and i have had my wars but I will NOT do that anymore . I will simply not post for a day or two or just flat out ignore people's comments. Or report them. As a member that is all you can do but helping the mods. stay in control is your part of being a member.

 

Just some thoughts and please again this was not and is not a promotional post. Andreas and I are good friends and we share whatever resources we have amongst ourselves so no i do not want 20 k people on my site ever. LOL Just too much freaking work.

 

Now our way is not the only way and there are many ways to make and keep things under control , but honestly folks it comes from you. Just another POV from a forum owner.

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Guest stnami

.........sounds as if there is a call for heavy censorship, is everyone going to be a censor or is it to be for the privileged few. This sorta leads to gang mentality, one gang against another etc

There will be nothing to stop half a dozen people getting together in order to urge the moderater to take action

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Guest guy_mancuso

That is a potential problem, I agree. But it is something to watch for also on the admin. side . But Imants trolls are trolls too and mostly the problems to begin with and that one is easily recognized.

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Guest Robert Belasario
.........sounds as if there is a call for heavy censorship, is everyone going to be a censor or is it to be for the privileged few. This sorta leads to gang mentality, one gang against another etc

There will be nothing to stop half a dozen people getting together in order to urge the moderater to take action

 

Welcome to the the World .....

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Anyone who objects to anything anyone else posts here is welcome to use the "Warning Triangle" button, on the left, under everyone's name. Everyone needs to understand that we have members from all over the world, from many cultures, faiths and beliefs. As such, what may be an innocuous remark to one person could be very offensive to another.

 

We are not going to go round rabidly banning people just because someone complains about them (except in exceptional circumstances). This is a free forum, where censorship is handed out reluctantly. People will be warned about their behaviour via a PM from a Mod or the Admin. If the behaviour persists, they will be handed a temporary ban. On their return, should they wish to return, continuation of the anti-forum behaviour will result in a permanent ban.

 

Anyone that uses more than one registered account will have one account deleted without warning.

 

However, we do ban people who are here just to troll, or wind people up or be bellicose and disruptive.

 

If everyone read the forum rules, and stuck to them, the Mods would have nothing to do. Until that great and glorious day, please, PM us, or, preferable use the "Triangle" which reaches all Mods and Admin at the same time. You are more likely to find one awake if you do it this way

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Guest Robert Belasario
That is a potential problem, I agree. But it is something to watch for also on the admin. side . But Imants trolls are trolls too and mostly the problems to begin with and that one is easily recognized.

 

Definition of a "so called" Troll is hard to define, and certainly differs from forum to forum.... To become a troll in the Leica forum it's usually enough to just critisize the fact of a 750€ display glass update .... Personally I find this ridiculous (the price for the upgrade that is) and I will mention that..... (however if people want to upgrade their current screen.... I really don't care) But I will mention the fact that I find this ridiculous .... my thought process towards this matter in some cases here classifies me as a Troll, a 13 year old dimwhit (according to the thread starter) and a complete idiot according to some others ..... Where lies your wisdom in this matter Guy ?

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Guest guy_mancuso

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LOL wisdom is one thing Robert but sometimes just gut reaction to constant not bringing anything to the table is pretty obvious. Complaining about something is not the issue and we all have opinions good, bad or indiffernt. The issue is sometimes how you say something than what you say. And frankly it is not always correct either and my way may not be the best way too. It is what it is but it sounds much worse than it truly is. There are real human beings on the back end of making a call. We are all not devils in disguise.

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Guest Cordell
.........sounds as if there is a call for heavy censorship, is everyone going to be a censor or is it to be for the privileged few. This sorta leads to gang mentality, one gang against another etc

There will be nothing to stop half a dozen people getting together in order to urge the moderater to take action

 

Yep, exactly, and that's exactly the way it operates now. If you dare to say anything even remotely critical of the M8 or Leica corporation, a squadron of drones flies out of the hive and does its best to drive him off. If they aren't successful, then they try to sting him to death. The accusations and allegations become so personal and malicious that few people can swallow their self-respect indefinitely, and the moment they respond defensively the attackers launch a barrage of complaints to the moderation to get the interloper banned. The dynamics at work here are very transparent.

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Guest Robert Belasario

I guess it might have something to do with the language issue as well.... where does one punctuate what and when and especially how, non english speakers have problems with this (like myself)....

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Guest guy_mancuso

Hell even english speaking folks have a hell of a time. ME. LOL

 

Look i don't want to get into all of the politics of running a forum good or bad but just wanted to bring up a few points that may help folks. Keep it simple but I do believe more folks get offended on how something is brought across the table than what they actually said. i think this is the area is more the critical part. Believe me there is not a soul on this forum that thinks the M8 is perfect so that is not the issue.

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We had our share of trolls here and we still see one from time to time but right now, I think that Guy and Robsteve pointed out that maybe the problem is the number of people here, including new ones.

 

I cannot help but notice that some of them want a status here, for some the one they have in real life and for others, the one they do not have in real life if you see what I mean.

 

Problem is, they behave like a child who wants to attract attention: talking all the times about everything, explaining to those who know better, complaining about how unfair it is to ask them to speak less...

 

Others simply come because they are angry. Even if it is interesting to know about M8 problems, the "Positive Thread" right now is proof that maybe, this forum should be about something else than dealing with the emotions of a guy who just registered to report a freeze.

 

The problem is the same with "we are not allow to criticize the M8" mantra. As Guy said, we are all aware of its imperfections and the problem is that the people complaining the most have usually found nothing new and are coming after the people who discovered the problems, exposed them here and sometimes worked to find solutions.

 

Anyway, the question was : is it possible to keep the informations flow readable and not buried in 'I want to talk to' messages ?

Maybe it is just a matter of times, letting the forum integrate new people, maybe dedicating some space to hot issues could be a good idea, either by creating temporary sub-forums or some special threads...

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Guest guy_mancuso

Pascal i think you hit a area that is a very useful feature of any forum for that matter and i am sure every Mod in the world would agree with me is the darn search feature. Most posts as we all would most likely agree have the same title or looking for the same info that already may have been done many times over. If we sat and thought about this the M8 has been out since last November. Now let's just take IR filters for example and even just me as the thread starter, come on old dogs we know for a fact i may have done at least 10 threads on it. See my point if every newbie just looked in the search feature alone , half these repeated questions would never be asked because the data is right there already. Okay i know that is a wet dream but hopefully you see my point. Every known issue on the M8 has been talked about at some point , yes there maybe new ones and such but for folks that been around and owned one since it's release we sat here patiently for all this time listening to the same questions asked. Not complaining but certainly making a small point, been there done that what's next. LOL

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Guest Cordell
the problem is the number of people here, including new ones...

 

I cannot help but notice that some of them want a status here...the one they do not have in real life if you see what I mean...

 

Problem is, they behave like a child ... . explaining to those who know better...

 

...Others simply come because they are angry...

 

 

Oh brother. I haven't heard that much overbloated hubris and egomania since I used to watch pro wrestling when I was a kid. Please tell us you're just messing with us. I'd hate to think you mean that stuff for real.

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Guy and Pascal - I think what you guys are talking about is a Wiki.

A wiki would operate in precisely the way you're envisioning: a problem is described, different solutions are added over time, and in the end you have a great resource for new and old users who simply can either consult the wiki-entry, or edit it themselves when new information becomes available.

The wiki attached to this forum hasn't really been used in this way - maybe we could more actively encourage constructive participation?

 

The special thing about a forum is that it is a free conversation rather than a controlled, one-way flow of information. I can see in some of the posts in this thread that there's an almost nostalgic longing for a 'former time' when debates were civilized and only about the polite exchange of factual information.

But the reality is that the conversations on all forums are generally repetitions or speculations, or someone 'letting off steam' or saying 'my camera is the best!'

 

I think that instead of talking about banning or taunting people by calling them 'trolls' or abuse, the best way to make this forum better is to start interesting and constructive threads yourselves - I mean everyone here, that is - not Guy or Pascal!

 

EDIT: I'm reading this last sentence again, and I just want to be clear I meant that EVERYONE needs to do their bit to make the forum better - not ONLY Guy and Pascal - but if everyone tries harder, it will get better.

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For those who are not aware, Cordell and I had an argument in another thread. I said something about another poster, he thought I was talking of him although I had said I agreed with him and he went postal.

 

So now he will dedicate his life to explain that I have ego and hubris problems...

 

This is exactly the kind of noise I'm talking about: this thread was a discussion about the forum and it ends up with a newbie trying to solve his personal problems.

 

I noticed the same thing in the "Lee was fired" thread: at the beginning, people were having an interesting exchange of ideas. But soon, it ended up in a fight of "I know better" posts.

So I keep wondering: how can we avoid this without a tremendous and tedious amount of moderation work ?

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Guest Robert Belasario
We had our share of trolls here and we still see one from time to time but right now, I think that Guy and Robsteve pointed out that maybe the problem is the number of people here, including new ones.

 

I cannot help but notice that some of them want a status here, for some the one they have in real life and for others, the one they do not have in real life if you see what I mean.

 

Problem is, they behave like a child who wants to attract attention: talking all the times about everything, explaining to those who know better, complaining about how unfair it is to ask them to speak less...

 

Others simply come because they are angry. Even if it is interesting to know about M8 problems, the "Positive Thread" right now is proof that maybe, this forum should be about something else than dealing with the emotions of a guy who just registered to report a freeze.

 

The problem is the same with "we are not allow to criticize the M8" mantra. As Guy said, we are all aware of its imperfections and the problem is that the people complaining the most have usually found nothing new and are coming after the people who discovered the problems, exposed them here and sometimes worked to find solutions.

 

Anyway, the question was : is it possible to keep the informations flow readable and not buried in 'I want to talk to' messages ?

Maybe it is just a matter of times, letting the forum integrate new people, maybe dedicating some space to hot issues could be a good idea, either by creating temporary sub-forums or some special threads...

 

In this case I'm confident it is the lack of proper english knowledge that leads you to write in the manner you write, so I will see this post as one of "establishing forum quality to a higher point" .... although it does cost me some effort to find solid reasoning behind a couple of layers of, well not be a master of the english language either please permit me in this matter to refer to it as "male cow manure"

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Guest guy_mancuso
Guy and Pascal - I think what you guys are talking about is a Wiki.

A wiki would operate in precisely the way you're envisioning: a problem is described, different solutions are added over time, and in the end you have a great resource for new and old users who simply can either consult the wiki-entry, or edit it themselves when new information becomes available.

The wiki attached to this forum hasn't really been used in this way - maybe we could more actively encourage constructive participation?

 

The special thing about a forum is that it is a free conversation rather than a controlled, one-way flow of information. I can see in some of the posts in this thread that there's an almost nostalgic longing for a 'former time' when debates were civilized and only about the polite exchange of factual information.

But the reality is that the conversations on all forums are generally repetitions or speculations, or someone 'letting off steam' or saying 'my camera is the best!'

 

I think that instead of talking about banning or taunting people by calling them 'trolls' or abuse, the best way to make this forum better is to start interesting and constructive threads yourselves - I mean everyone here, that is - not Guy or Pascal!

 

EDIT: I'm reading this last sentence again, and I just want to be clear I meant that EVERYONE needs to do their bit to make the forum better - not ONLY Guy and Pascal - but if everyone tries harder, it will get better.

 

Very good point here. Also yes i wanted to get away immediately from talking about banning and such , no place for it and certainly boring stuff. Just not needed .

 

The one issue as I see Wiki is more or less use. Folks just don't seem to be that interested in it for some reason. i also do not know enough about it myself but it is a good resource that does have the data there. Certainly on a personally note like Sean which we have started many posts on stuff it would be useful to point to those posts more often or data points. Plus all the forum members hot topic threads. There certainly would be a load of data just on the M8 alone. I wish I did something like this with the DMR at the time.

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Message above is another illustration of the "noise" point. At least not xenophobic as usual but not better.

 

I agree with Guy about the "searching before posting". However, this seems quite rare on many forums.

Some people clearly do not even read the thread they are posting in.

 

More use of the Wiki is a good idea but only if we maintain it in real time to reflect hot issues and if we get the habit of redirecting people there.

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Guest guy_mancuso

I agree Pascal Wiki is a great idea , we just need to make use of it or train ourselves to use it more. That old dog new tricks idea. LOL

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Guest Cordell
For those who are not aware, Cordell and I had an argument in another thread. I said something about another poster, he thought I was talking of him although I had said I agreed with him and he went postal.

 

You very clearly implied that I was lying about my resume. I never go postal, that is a sure way to lose an argument.

 

So now he will dedicate his life ...

 

Oh no, that's not an egomaniacal delusion

 

a newbie trying to solve his personal problems.

 

,,,and he's back to making personal insults.

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