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Leica M8 - Would you buy it now?


patashnik

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Pay $5000 for an M8 and take $1000-$1750 off of your tax burden. A nice discount to be sure, but it hardly qualifies as free gear.

 

That's what I assumed, and the way it works in the UK. Any purchase has to be seen by the authorities as a legitimate business expense.

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Thanks to Steve & Guy,

Well, for sure there is a lot to be said for AF, etc. The M8 with the Leica glass I have, is truly stunning when things go right. I suppose I was simply disillusioned following the holidays. I took hundreds of photos and not one of them was really in focus. Ok, I wrote that whole shoot off to learning since I have since acquired a better feel for what is expected. My keepers’ are now averaging about one out of fifty, so I suppose thats' progress. I pretty much just have to accept the fact that for now, my skills are somewhat limited. As for the external elements of Leica, it is a factor (for me) when one considers the longevity of the company in relation to follow-on support. And to that end, product support is clearly not one of Leica’s hallmarks by any measurable standard, or at least so far as I can tell by the various forum comments. Despite all this “Deer Hunter” music, I’ll likely stick with it for a while longer. Sorta like’ “Damn the torpedoes – full steam ahead!”.

Regards,:rolleyes:

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Elvis, that's pretty much the same situation as here in the UK though typically we can only write off 25%-50% of a declining balance per year; we do get 100% of the sales tax (VAT) back in year one though. Only works for business assets of course.

 

Underlines that chopping and changing your equipment does actually cost real net-of-tax money, even for business users, which is how you'd expect it to be.

 

The comment about needing to account for written off assets is real though. I had a tax inspector asking what had happened to a couple of written off laptops. As it happened, we'd given them to charity but if you resell them on ebay (for example), here in the UK, we're supposed to declare the proceeds as income and charge sales tax. You can of course charge the ebay and paypal fees on such disposals as a business expense and so it goes on...

 

[sorry Steve, you beat me to it...]

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And to that end, product support is clearly not one of Leica’s hallmarks by any measurable standard, or at least so far as I can tell by the various forum comments

 

Then again how many companies are willing, or able, to repair 50 year old cameras?

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I also agree with Steve. My goal for a long while has been; two pictures per month worthy of printing larger than 5x7. A special treat is if the shot is meaningful to a friend. Their faces light up when they receive the gift. Knowing that they will treasure it is good for my soul.

 

And this is the greatest value of the M8 for me. It's picture quality is close to that of my Nikon D2X but I'll take it along where I wouldn't want to lug the Nikon. Many times this is casual gatherings with friends. Thanks to the M8 lots of great moments have been captured in high quality. These shots will live longer than most landscape shots.

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[sorry Steve, you beat me to it...]

 

No problem Mark, the other thing to mention is that the tax people take a rather dim view of a company selling those assets off to an employee (i.e. the photographer) for unrealistic sums once depreciated. So that 1p Leica M8 kit probably isn't such a good idea <grin>

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Guest guy_mancuso
Thanks to Steve & Guy,

Well, for sure there is a lot to be said for AF, etc. The M8 with the Leica glass I have, is truly stunning when things go right. I suppose I was simply disillusioned following the holidays. I took hundreds of photos and not one of them was really in focus. Ok, I wrote that whole shoot off to learning since I have since acquired a better feel for what is expected. My keepers’ are now averaging about one out of fifty, so I suppose thats' progress. I pretty much just have to accept the fact that for now, my skills are somewhat limited. As for the external elements of Leica, it is a factor (for me) when one considers the longevity of the company in relation to follow-on support. And to that end, product support is clearly not one of Leica’s hallmarks by any measurable standard, or at least so far as I can tell by the various forum comments. Despite all this “Deer Hunter” music, I’ll likely stick with it for a while longer. Sorta like’ “Damn the torpedoes – full steam ahead!”.

Regards,:rolleyes:

 

Daniel even myself with many years experience shooting many types of formats the M8 was new to me also and it took some time, after about three months i got really comfortable all around with it. Give yourself some time to adjust it really is not as easy as one thinks or lends oneself to believe. Don't worry about leica they been around for more years than almost any of us can count. They will be there in the future too and there getting better in those area's of customer support. It is depressing for me to hear of 4 weeks , 2 months and all that it should be 2 weeks period for any repair. They will get there and I do know they are working on it. But don't go on blind faith either at some point you have to decide if it is working for you and if not sell it.

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Tax deductions - there is no free lunch.

 

When you take accelerated depreciation for camera gear used by a business, you do get to "write off" some of the amount. But when you go to sell the gear, you have to report the proceeds as income and pay taxes at that time. Additionally, various states and localities asses annual "Personal Property Tax" on equipment used in a business.

 

Let's say you are in the 35% tax bracket. So $10,000 worth of gear would save you $3500 in taxes the year you bought it. But if you sell the gear 3 years later for $7,000, you then have to pay $2450 in taxes. ($7,000 of additional gross income.) Thus the "preliminary" savings would only be $1050. In those three years you might pay $600 - $900 in personal property tax. So your total savings after three years might be $150-$450.

 

Therefore, if you pay 2 or 3 percent personal property tax anually for a few years and later sell your gear for 30% less than you originally spent for it, the savings are not that great. (Especially if you also consider that the money spent on cameras could have been invested in something else. $6500 invested at 5% per year for 3 years is more than $1000 and may be taxed at a lower rate depending on the investment category.) The state of Virginia charges 4.57% annually on vehicles and most other equipment on a pro-rated cost basis. If you pay Virginia "Personal Property Tax for business equipment" you'll be behind. Plus you might be paying insurance on it too.

 

As for Guy's mention of deductions for heavy luxury SUVs, I believe that "loophole" was partially closed a few years ago. Somehow non-farm user were deductiong heavy SUVs as farm equipment. Yet there may still be significant deductions available for this class of vehicles.

 

See this:

Law change halts huge SUV tax break

 

Small businesses such as mine have to carry all kinds of insurance - Disability, health, workers comp., liability, equipment floater, and personal umbrella. And we have a lot of paperwork too.

 

One has to bring in a very substantial gross income to achieve a reasonable lifestyle in my region of the country. (Washington DC) Deducting for the camera gear is not much of a help.

 

References -

 

From the government web site:

In Maryland there is a tax on business owned personal property which is imposed and collected by the local governments. Responsibility for the assessment of all personal property throughout Maryland rests with the Department of Assessments and Taxation.

 

Personal property generally includes furniture, fixtures, office and industrial equipment, machinery, tools, supplies, inventory and any other property not classified as real property.

 

--------------------------

State of Virginia:

 

Business Personal Property Tax - $4.57 per $100 of assessed

value.

 

A local example from the state of Virginia:

The County of Shenandoah levies a tax on tangible personal property used in a trade or business, to include but not limited to such items as furniture, computer, fixtures, machinery and tools located in the County on January 1st. You must file a Business Personal Property form with the Commissioner of Revenue no later than February 1 of each taxable year. Business accounts will also be billed semi-annually with payments due June 5 and December 5. Please contact the Commissioner of Revenue for further information. The tax rate for Business Personal Property is $2.86 per $100.

 

Details from Virginia just to you really get the picture not to have a lot of excess gear around:

 

Business personal property is depreciated and taxed based on a percentage of original cost. Examples of business personal property include desks and chairs, computer hardware, specialized tools, machinery, and equipment. (Company-owned vehicles are subject to the filing requirements for Motor Vehicles.)

 

Tax on business personal property (except motor vehicles) is not prorated.

 

Most business property (except computer equipment) is assessed at 80% of the original cost for the first year and 10% less each succeeding year for six years until it reaches a floor of 20% for all property acquired in the sixth year and all prior years.

 

A new depreciation schedule for computer equipment became effective on January 1, 2003. According to the new schedule, computer equipment is assessed at 50% of the original cost the first year, 35% the second year, 20% the third year, 10% the fourth year, and 2% for all computer equipment acquired in the fifth year and all prior years.

 

The current tax rate for personal property in Fairfax County is $4.57 for each $100 of assessed value.

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The idea of paying tax each year on an inventory of what you own is completely foreign to me; here, we may pay a higher rate of income tax (41%) and sales tax at 17.5% but once you have bought something, that's it. Just shows you, whereever you go, they'll get you one way or another.

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Buying toilet paper works for me:D :D

 

I'm really bad at this stuff.

 

Andy please ban any IRS folks here. ROTFLMAO

 

Guy, if I understand "net-speak" correctly, after you have "ROTFLMAO" you won't actually have a further requirement for toilet paper...:rolleyes:

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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... Just shows you, whereever you go, they'll get you one way or another.

 

That's the bottom line. I don't know much about the tax structure in the rest of the world, but in the US it gets very complicated because we have Federal, State, local, and sometimes municipal taxes that come into the picture. Each entity can decide for itself what taxes to impose upon you and your business.

 

For instance in Maryland there is no annual car tax for individuals. Whereas I believe Virginians now pay $4.57 percent - down from 5%. But Maryland charges a much higher tax on home sales than Virginia does - these are called a real estate transfer tax, and a recording tax. And it even varies from county to county. Municipalities may tack on something too. I think Virginians pay about half of what Marylanders pay when a home is sold. But then Virginia gets it back with its personal property taxes each year. And then there is the District of Columbia - about a mile from me. I don't know much about their taxes, but the DC vehicle license plates have this motto - "Taxation Without Representation" because the 588,000+ Washington DC residents do not have the opportunity to elect voting representatives in the US House of Representatives or in the US Senate.

 

Some states don't have sales tax and some don't have income tax.

 

I think at the time of the American Revolution, colonists were being taxed at a very low rate, but rebelled out of principle. However citizens of Washington DC don't have that option.

 

The Straight Dope Mailbag: Percentagewise, were taxes greater in the old days or now?

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Guest guy_mancuso
Guy, if I understand "net-speak" correctly, after you have "ROTFLMAO" you won't actually have a further requirement for toilet paper...:rolleyes:

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Great point Bill , did not think of that one. LOL

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RF is not for everyone

 

This is so true. And I believe many people, not necessarily anyone here, got the M8 purely for it's "status". I know my cousine could have done it for this reason, but he understood he don't want a MF RF.

 

Afterwards instead of admitting to themself buying something purely for, let's say looks, they rather trash Leica or Leicas CEO for it. :o

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