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russell

This is really crazy! New 6bit coding price 433€ (not even the 169€ from before)

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My Noctilux is in Solms for 6bit coding.

 

I asked for a revision and lens elements clearing.

 

The bill is very similar: 76 euros for the new lens mount and 250 euros for work: lens cleaning, revision, focus ring adjustment, final check and adjustment. You must add 16% of VAT. Final bill: 393 euros.

 

My main concern is about the tasks to be performed. How detailed is that revision and adjustment?

 

I think it is not so expensive, if 3 hours of work are needed. Professional repair of other brands in Spain are much more expensive.

 

R.

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Steve:

 

Lenses don't just drift out of spec. I have seen quite a few M lenses apart and have never seen a design that would allow a lens that passed QC when made (and was not tampered with) to somehow be "off" now.

 

If Leica advertises the M8 as compatible with its historic lenses and is soliciting people to do 6-bit coding, then Leica is responsible for fixing any focus problems that result from changing the flange. The resulting RF cam height and collimation are completely within Leica's control (and a product of the tolerances in the new 6-bit flange).

 

My personal suspicion is that the 6-bit coding is just a way for Leica to quietly tighten its production tolerances on old lenses. At $125, that's a pretty good deal. If they do it correctly.

 

But looking at that bill, it looks like the full cost of coding shows up as a material - and installation labor shows up separately. Strange.

 

Dante

 

Russell,

 

You haven't just had six-bit coding done though, have you. Both invoices list 'optical adjustment for M8' and 'adjust focusing ring' etc, and in your post on the other thread you stated that you had sent your M8 in together with the lenses. You also stated above that the Noctilux needed adjustment for back focus.

 

You can't expect to get other work thrown in for free for just the price of the six-bit coding. A garage working on your car would invoice in the same way.

Whether the price is reasonable, or if you expected any of the work to be done under warranty is another matter of course.

 

I sympathise with you over the expensive bill, but it's always this way with Leica.

 

Steve

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Hi, Citrus -

 

I noticed your Eurocentric post above, & wonder if you're aware that many techs elsewhere - like Sherry K., whom I mentioned - are Leica-trained & in a number of instances worked at the NJ repair facility in the E. Leitz days when it was a 100% competent, rapid-fire operation.

 

I don't know how well the grand old NA Leica repair folks - DAG & Golden Touch in US, & Kindermann in Canada - have kept up with M8 electronics. But if we're talking about overhauling & resetting lenses, there's no German hi-tech mystique that has eluded the rest of the world. Same training, same tools. Maybe the hands are getting a little older & shakier.

 

Kirk

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Here's the reply:

 

"Thank you for your inquiery about the costs of the 6-BIT upgrade only. The costs are € 140,- + Tax.

While testing the lenses we had to find out that the focusing is not in good working order so if we do not repair the focusing, we can not adjust the lens after the 6-BIT coding so therefore we can not warranty this function.

Please let us know how we should proceed."

 

I'm not sure how I should reply to them.

My 50mm Summilux is focusing almost perfectly. My Noctilux has a small back-focus which could be lived with(especially given how hard it is to adjust percisely -- it could be the case they send it back and the focus is just as bad or worse).

What do you guys think? How should I repond? I want the coding but I dont feel like paying the 433 EURs.

 

At any rate I think it's confirmed Leica doesnt warranty focus after adding 6-bit coding unless you pay them 433 EURs

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Russell, you're reading that all wrong IMO. Leica are saying to you that they have identified a problem in the focusing of your lenses, You may not have noticed this in the past either on film or digital but they have found something which they consider to be out of spec.

 

They are saying you can proceed with the 6bit coding but they will not warranty the focusing accuracy after the lens mount change. It would seem from their reply that the focus adjustment is done prior to mount change not after. Leica warranty covers all lenses they 6bit code and leave the factory within spec, yours however seem to need some remedial work to be within spec before they code them.

 

You can either take them at their word that you have the problem and let them fix it for you or proceed to just have the mounts changed and hope everything still works as before. I hardly think they are trying to squeeze a further €200 odd euro per lens out of you just for the sake of it.

 

Either way you still have my sympathy, I know it's not nice to be faced with a bill for €433 x 2 when you thought it would be €140 x 2. Time to make a decision I guess

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Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but the focus are fine. There is nothing wrong with the lenses' focus. I think the confusion comes from the fact that their mother language is German. What looks like past tense in English is probably intended to be future tense. I dont think they've cracked the lenses open yet and found any major focus problems (there are none to find).

 

I think perhaps this is just the new repair policy how they will respond to any lens sent in for coding.

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Reply to their email asking for confirmation that they have found an issue with the lens. I've had half a dozen lenses coded and only been charged the UK equivalent of 140 Euros + VAT, as have many other people here.

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My reply:

 

"Andrea, I want to check what you’re saying. Have you already confirmed there is a focus problem with the lenses? If you have, then what are those problems exactly? Or are you talking about what would be included in the extra labour costs?

Please be aware, there shouldn’t be any focus problems with these lenses. The 50mm Summilux focuses fine and better than any of my other lenses. The Noctilux has predictable small (in millimeters) backfocus that I can live with. The 35mm Lux is also focusing fine.

What I am concerned is that by adding the 6-bit coding you make the focus worse."

 

Even assuming they've found a real problem with the lens, I wonder why they dont also include the advise of sending in M8 at the same time to match the lenses to the body. With tolerances this tight and labour costs so high this is a process you dont want to go through again soon.

Also keep in mind if I send the M8 again for the August update they might whack the body's focus a bit different and therefore needed yet another body to lens optimization.

 

It becomes an endless loop?

 

Well, let's see how she replies

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The endless loop here, unfortunately, is this thread...

 

Comparing what Leica have said in your estimate to what they say in mine for the same request ("please code this lens"), it seems clear you have asked them explicitly to check and if necessary adjust the focussing. They seem to be taking this to mean that you think the focus is off already and needs adjusting and are rightly charging you for it.

 

What, precisely, did you ask them to do?

 

Andrea Frankl is very helpful but it will always pay to use simple and straight-forward English to tell them what you would like. Or use German.

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For what it's worth. I send my M8 to Solms last October togethe with several lenses, including 75 Summilux and a Noctilux for coding and for checking focussing (I had experienced backfocussing on all long lenses). For the 75 Summilux, Leica had indentified a lense problem and asked some 200 Euros extra; for all other lenses, they asked the normal coding prices. They charged nothing for checking and correcting the rangefinder.

 

For several reasons, I had little time and opportunity to check the camera and the critical lenses, but I finally managed to do a check last weekend. I am totally happy. In particular the 75 Summilux, which as always causing me headaches (also on the M7), is spot on wide open. In my view, the extra 200 were well spend.

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Mark, I think perhaps you are right. Instead of asking them to check that the 6-bit coding process doesnt throw off the focus, I should have just said, "add 6-bit coding" to avoid confusion.

 

Basically I think the insight of this thread is that if you send in a lens for 6-bit coding Leica will not warranty the focus. That costs extra.

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Russell, I think that's true, if the focus is off, it will still be off when the lens comes back.

 

I don't think there's much evidence at all that coding a lens does affect the focus; sure, they shim the bayonet ring with some lenses (such as the 75mm Summilux) but that is to adjust for tolerances in the lens and focussing mount, not the bayonet ring.

 

Those rings will be made on hugely expensive machine tools and will be very close toleranced - they may even grade them like manufacturers of engine pistons and bearings do - to avoid upsetting anything.

 

As explained to me by Gerald Wagner, the coding process consists of replacing the ring, checking for correct lens recognition, an external clean and a visual check (albeit by people with very experienced eyes) for correct operation. In my view, if you include the logistics overhead (shipping, tracking, invoicing, credit card fees), it represents good value for money.

 

I know Leica take some stick here, I have always found Leica Service to be totally professional and offering good value for the skills employed.

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Basically I think the insight of this thread is that if you send in a lens for 6-bit coding Leica will not warranty the focus. That costs extra.

 

Russell,

I have a 50 asph lux, that showed focusing issues. I wanted it coded but explained that there were focusing issues. Leica adjusted the focus, albeit with two attempts, in the price of the coding as the lens was still in its two years warranty.

 

I think your statement holds true for lenses out of warranty, e.g. my 10 year old 35 asph lux cost roughly €450 for coding and adjustment iirc

 

Huw

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Got the lenses back today. Havent gone through and tested them yet but I wanted to say that I am happy with the turnaround time.

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I have a question.

 

 

If the lense is still on warranty do you have to pay for focus adjustment or any calibration?

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If 6-bit coding just a part, and Leica is taking no responsibility for how your lens focuses (via-a-vis spec) afterward, then why won't Leica sell coded mounts as a part?

 

And why in some cases does Leica require other recalibration before coding?

 

These questions are why, in my mind, the premise that Leica is doing a mechanical mount switch and the conclusion that you need to send your lenses in again for another 2-month repair cycle to make the focus correct do not make much sense.

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Solms is finally coming clean...the tolerances on the M8 are tighter..translated.....your lenses , that worked fine on film, may not be properly calibrated to the tighter standards necessary with the M8. The have been slow to implement these standards as evidenced by "new" lenses back focusing. Both the Summilux and Noctilux require new mounts for 6 bit coding ...the tolerances are much tighter and the adjustment to the focusing mount is extremely difficult. My experience has been that they frequently require several trips to get right. What seems to be a legitimate complaint is that the M8 was promoted as being capable of using a list of existing lenses....published document on six bit coding....and spending $5-600 to accomplish 6 bit coding is excessive. The situation can be quite different depending on the age and condition of the lens.....I sent in an almost new 39XXXXXX Summilux with an acknowledged back focus problem but otherwise perfect and a beat 27XXXXXXX Noctilux that I have had for 25 years. I Paid $700 for the Noctilux and the standard 6 bit for the Summilux. That seemed fair to me. The only thing you should be careful of is the adjustment to your M8...it takes a few minutes to adjust the rangefinder and sometimes hours to change the focus point on a lens. What do you think they will do to correct your issues? The only way to protect yourself is to ask that you lenses be calibrated to the M8 standard and that you M8 be adjusted to the M8 standard. Hopefully you can check you M8 with a another lens that has been shown to be precise.

 

Well, this sorta confirms what I suspected all along. Those of us newbie’s who purchased new lenses and a new M8 are compromised. Ever since I received my camera and 28-cron in November I suspected something was wrong. I recently received my new 50-lux and it’s pretty much the same. Regardless of how steady I shoot, things generally appear a bit out of focus once I view them on the display or download them. Problem is; I don’t know enough to prove or disprove my suspicions. I guess I need to bag up my camera and lenses and send them off for CLA (whatever that means) and have them tuned or otherwise matched.

Regards,

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If it was uner professional service (express) they repair as they see fit. If under normal service they will ask you. I got a bill of £300 as they needed to adjust lense so this seems about the same as my cost.

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CLA (whatever that means) and have them tuned or otherwise matched.

Regards,

 

CLA Clean Lubricate Adjust

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