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Guest Robert Belasario

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Jamie Roberts,

 

there is no betrayal..... just the start of a roadmap with an uncertain end and a not yet specified cost factor, but judging at the rate of the current upgrade it's not going to be cheap.

 

The betrayal was mentioned in Sandy's post...

 

I doubt wether the 1.800$ will provide you with a better M8 for 18 months I seriously doubt that to, a slower marginally quieter shutter and a bullet proof screen cover????

Well, I'm not sure if it's marginally quiet // less shake or significantly quieter more M6-like. In any case, as I've priced this before:

  • 2 years more warranty = $500
  • CLA on 2 year old M8 = $500
  • Shutter replacement, including tear down labour = $500
  • Screen replacement (nice to have, not necessary) = $300

So I actually don't see anything as out of line here; it's what I'd expect to pay from any pro camera company, no? Heck, Canon re-sealed my 50 1.2L (should have been warranty) and that cost me $100, no parts, minimal labour.

 

And anyway it is anyones choice to mek use of the upgrade or not, I agree that nobaody puts a trigger to your head.... but still the easyness of 39% of the LUF M8 user base whom say "Yeah" is the part which gives Leica a free trip to ponder into any given or not given route they might want to ponder into .... again without providing adaquate infroamtion about where the end lies, what the possibilitirs might be, what happens if one doesn't sign up for the first upgrade and wants to join the seconde, third or whatever ... etc.

 

1) it's easy to say "yes" on an online poll and not so easy to shell out 1200 euros. We'll see.

 

2) The end "ends" wherever it can. Good on Leica for giving you something, an option, that you *would not have had with any other peice of gear*.

 

Why is this so hard to swallow? The only reason I've seen so far for any hand-wringing whatsoever is the "what if I need one upgrade to do the other one" question, which, yes, Leica needs to explain. They will, I'm sure.

 

All seems rather unprofessional at a first glance, but apparantly works having a client base as Leica has.

 

Actually, it seems very professionally oriented to me. You don't upgrade jewellry, only working technology. And even if you think the better screen is non-essential, it's still functional. Maybe someone wouldn't care if their M8 is wrapped in leather all the time; I bash mine into other cameras around my neck all the time

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Why is this so hard to swallow? The only reason I've seen so far for any hand-wringing whatsoever is the "what if I need one upgrade to do the other one" question, which, yes, Leica needs to explain. They will, I'm sure.

 

I thought Leica has cleared this up. You can't split up the options within an upgrade (get the shutter but pass on the LCD protector and warranty) but you can pick and choose upgrades. You can get upgrade #2 even if you passed on upgrade #1.

 

The LUF is a very small sampling of Leica owners. I think the number of camera's that will get updated will be small. Otherwise Leica will wind up with a 2 year waiting list which is not something they are anticipating, as it would not reflect positively on the company. I think it's the concept of knowing you could do it that provides a certain comfort factor. They are probably hoping that it will make for less people waiting on purchasing as they start to anticipate an M9 could be near.

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Your guess at the price of a 'FF M9' is far too high for it's market and would likely kill Leica. The upgrade ladder, and the 'FF M9' price have to be set with sympathy for one another; anything less will create a ruinous relationship with M8 owners, put-off 'M9' purchasers, or both. That's Kamikaze marketing I'd say.

 

.................. Chris

 

Chris--I guess you didn't read enough of the "Another pros view..." thread to realize that we are mostly just a bunch of rich idiots who will buy anything with a red dot and rave about how great it is. None of us actually USE this stuff, so it doesn't REALLY have to be that good.

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I wouldn't dismiss Robert so quickly; he sounds like he really knows what he's talking about. When Sdai said he could invest 12000 today and have 15000 tomorrow, Robert agreed: "point taken..... when refering to people with common sense."

 

My solution would be to do that investment thing, double your money in a week or so, and then you can get the upgrade for free. My only question, Robert, is where do I go to make 25% a day?

 

My apologies for feeding; it's my first violation this year.

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{snipped}You can get upgrade #2 even if you passed on upgrade #1.

 

The LUF is a very small sampling of Leica owners.{snipped}.

 

Hank--thanks for this, I must have missed it. I agree with you on the numbers and on the strategy as comfort factor and to keep M8 sales moving between now and the time an M9 shows up.

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Guest Robert Belasario
I wouldn't dismiss Robert so quickly; he sounds like he really knows what he's talking about. When Sdai said he could invest 12000 today and have 15000 tomorrow, Robert agreed: "point taken..... when refering to people with common sense."

 

My solution would be to do that investment thing, double your money in a week or so, and then you can get the upgrade for free. My only question, Robert, is where do I go to make 25% a day?

 

My apologies for feeding; it's my first violation this year.

 

You should off followed the news last week instead of lurking on the LUF :-)

 

yahoo + 67% could of payed for your upgrade.... just an example though, and sorry for taking your "food", it was too easy!

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How on earth can people feel betrayed if they're buying something and using it "now?" Is there no value attached to having and using something anymore?

 

Jamie, I think that's exactly right for the (

strategy people I mentioned in my original post - the folks that just want to go out and take images, and the price isn't an issue, e.g., because they shoot so much that cost per click is low anyway. But there are a lot of people that aren't in that position, and cost/resale value is a significant factor. Fact is, the upgrade (and the M8 is only a bit more than a year old) is the same price as a brand new D300. If M8 photography means the price of a D300 every 18 months - well, that's a pretty expensive way to spend your time. The Leica tradition is a "camera for life" - now rationally, nobody expected that for a digital camera. But I don't think many people would have predicted $1800 after such a short time on the market either. If Leica didn't antipipate a lot of angst around this, then they don't understand their market.

 

Sandy

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You should off followed the news last week instead of lurking on the LUF :-)

 

yahoo + 67% could of payed for your upgrade.... just an example though, and sorry for taking your "food", it was too easy!

 

Guys, please don't feed the illiterate troll.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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You should off followed the news last week instead of lurking on the LUF :-)

 

yahoo + 67% could of payed for your upgrade.... just an example though, and sorry for taking your "food", it was too easy!

 

That's very easy to say in hindsight.

 

If you've just come here to wind people up, you can forget it.

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Guest Robert Belasario

Whats the matter now Billy Boy ..... you get asked a question, you answer it, no speculation, no would or might be's just facts ..... not even having anythingthing to do with Leica or Leica Products .... trodden on your sore toes again have I?

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Guest Robert Belasario
That's very easy to say in hindsight.

 

So will most things discussed here be ....

 

However everyone knows the answers .....

 

I would say read the question, and then read my answer .... it's an example of where one could of made this sort of percentage.... and a recent one at that.

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It almost goes without saying that the clever bit is knowing that Yahoo are going to go up 67% BEFORE it happens, not after. Any fool can say "If you'd have invested in Yahoo last week, you'd be 67% better off today"

 

Just to let you know that our patience level with rude trolls is pretty low at the moment.

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I have a similar problem with the lottery numbers. If only I'd know the winning numbers before the draw rather than afterwards <grin>.

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Guest Robert Belasario

And then Mr. barton in which way am I winding you/others up?

 

I tend to reply in a similar manner as I am addressed, being new here is that not allowed? might there be some sort of picking order to which I am yet unaccustomed?

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Guest Robert Belasario
It almost goes without saying that the clever bit is knowing that Yahoo are going to go up 67% BEFORE it happens, not after. Any fool can say "If you'd have invested in Yahoo last week, you'd be 67% better off today"

 

Just to let you know that our patience level with rude trolls is pretty low at the moment.

 

Your patience level with anyone with a different perhaps to critical mindset towards Leica might be pretty low at the moment .....

 

again please explain to me the content of my "rude troll" level.... or is this to much to ask for

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Jamie, I think that's exactly right for the ( strategy people I mentioned in my original post - the folks that just want to go out and take images, and the price isn't an issue, e.g., because they shoot so much that cost per click is low anyway. But there are a lot of people that aren't in that position, and cost/resale value is a significant factor. Fact is, the upgrade (and the M8 is only a bit more than a year old) is the same price as a brand new D300. If M8 photography means the price of a D300 every 18 months - well, that's a pretty expensive way to spend your time. The Leica tradition is a "camera for life" - now rationally, nobody expected that for a digital camera. But I don't think many people would have predicted $1800 after such a short time on the market either. If Leica didn't antipipate a lot of angst around this, then they don't understand their market.

 

Sandy

 

Points well taken, Sandy. I guess if you expected your M8 to never age (and never be used) it's a lot of money to "keep up with."

 

I guess, too, that if your idea of M8 photography is always having the most up-to-date M8 then you could feel upset.

 

But, from my perspective, then "good on Leica" for moving away from the jewellry / fashion market (where somene just has to have the latest trend) and into real shutter actuations again (literally, in the first upgrade case), where people can make upgrades based on their technical need or desire.

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Guest CliPar

This is my second post, but I've lurked for some time. Stunsworth tries to turn things around so it looks like others are calling us idiots when that's precisely what he's doing since we are smart enough to know when we're being called idiots, and when we're not. And "Bill" is beyond the pale, referring to another poster as illiterate. Is the forum moderator on holiday? Oh, wait, I see Andy is here. Calling someone else a "rude troll". I don't recall seeing such blatant immaturity and disrespect on this forum in a long while.

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Yes, I think Hank made the essential point that is behind the Leica upgrade plan. Knowing that you have access to an upgrade as and when new technology comes along means there is less risk in buying now. You only need to look at the rapidity with which other manufacturers put out a new camera for each technological advance they develop. You can feel a bit cheated if you bought a model that is considered "obsolete" a few months later. Leica is taking a different approach.

 

Doug

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There will be three upgrades before introduction of the FF M9

 

- first this minor 1.800$ one

- Second will be another (minor) upgrade say 1.800$ too

- Third will be an upgrade to a FF sensor at a cost of appr. 3.950€

 

All with guarantee extension etc.

 

This will bring your FF m8 to a total of some 12.000$

 

6 months later the FF M9 will be introduced at 10.990$

.....

 

This is just your personal fantasy. It is completely without solid knowledge.

 

I too understand marketing, having been in the field for some 25 years or so. They may have an upgrade path determined for perhaps this 1st one and perhaps for a full frame upgrade as they are hinting at showing something at Photokina, but I don't think there will be a $11K cost for a full frame M8.

 

As to upgrades, YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THEM! If you are a hobbiest, you get to decide if the upgrade is worth it. It you are a Pro, you too get to determine if you need or want the upgrade, and can it pay for itself in new work or opportunities.

 

I smell a Troll.

 

DBK

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Boy! I was responding to the posts by Hank Graber and Jamie Roberts #'s 22 and 25. In the short time before posting it appears a cat fight commenced! My post #38 looks a little out of context (and several degrees cooler...)

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