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Guest Robert Belasario

Perfect marketing insight

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Guest Robert Belasario

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There will be three upgrades before introduction of the FF M9

 

- first this minor 1.800$ one

- Second will be another (minor) upgrade say 1.800$ too

- Third will be an upgrade to a FF sensor at a cost of appr. 3.950€

 

All with guarantee extension etc.

 

This will bring your FF m8 to a total of some 12.000$

 

6 months later the FF M9 will be introduced at 10.990$

 

80% of the upgraders (the people with more money than common sense) will immediately order the M9 of which 60% will place their upgraded M8’s on the market at good prices. 50% of these will be bought by current non leica users, the other 50 % by non-upgrade leica users whom in return will put their Non-upgraded M8’s on the market, which will be bought by 50% of non leica users … etc. etc.

 

Leica AG will have made money on the upgrade crowd, the new purchase M9 crowd (which they would of done anyway) but also increased the installed base of Leica M digital cameras, and all this at minimal expense (again with thanks to the more money than common sense followers)

 

Being a public company they will argue that the profits might not seem high but the installed base of Leica cameras is rapidly growing (procentually) and therefore the justification of their business model is actually solid (which it might well be, no arguing here)

 

Now I’m not trying to forecast the future here, the timing will probably be way off as will the number of upgrades, just trying to explain how marketing strategies work, and how Leica has now introduced a very profitable one, and only because they know their client base (more money than …. You know the rap)

 

All in all a very nice strategy, thought out well and guaranteed to work… because of the more money…. etc

 

wouldn't we all wish for such a customer base.....

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Oh dear...

 

Didn't enough people read your very first post?

 

Congratulations on being the only person on the Forum who understands "...how marketing strategies work..."

 

Your point is?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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as i m not selling any goods but only knowledge and solutions to problems my customers have i dont have the problem with offering upgrades, but still, i dont see why this upgrade is giving so much headache and/or sleepless nights to so many people

 

did you ever think about how canon or nikon or any other company does it? how long was the 1dsmk2 alive and the top product, until canon released the 1dsmk3? same with the 1dmk2, 1dmk2n and 1dmk3. did canon offer any upgrade program? didnt the prices for the former model drop as well?

 

and for those being so unhappy with the flaws of the m8, did any of you get happy with any dslr from the begining?

 

for me it sounds mostly like some leica customers think, after buying a camera they have the right to get any upgrade and service for free and that they became, at least, the vice presidents from leica through their purchase.

 

sorry, but i really have enough of those 'leica-wants-to-make-money-from-me' or 'leica-must-offer-all-upgrades-for-fee' or 'leica-the-dark-side' threads. people tend to forget that leica is a company offering cameras, lenses and other products, if you like them buy them if you dont or you cant get used to them, leave them. its not like anyone forces you to buy or use them and for sure noone will loose hers/his life if a person decides to move away from those products.

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Guest Robert Belasario

My point is .... that the strategy is perfect, like I said.... but the main condition is that it needs users like you to succeed and the fact that Leica AG actually does know this and will continue to feed these users knowing that their user are actually overrating their efforts.

 

Leica can introduce Solms made 850€ "Brownie cameras" and still rely on users defending the Leica glow and workmanship.

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Guest Robert Belasario

Laki, it's not about flaws, I actually like my M8 and have shot over 25K shots with it, it is however not a no-problem camera and it's IQ even with renowned M lenses is not perfect.

 

I havent taken price into account .....

 

The only thing it has going for it, appart from the Leica name and legend, is it's size, and the size not being worth the extra $ compared to other offers on the market place today I would say that Leica users aren't so much interested in their IQ as in the hardware itself, and this is all fine, but this is the basis of the producer being able to manifest themselves upon this customer base.

 

As for Canon and Nikon afferings ..... just check out the specs of a D3, I know much bigger, much heavier... but much more of an IQ product than the M8 will ever be.

The 40D upgrade wasn't just a larger viewer upgrade either, it has actually improved at all points, perhaps not up to Leica standards, although this is debatable, but certainly a very well spec'ed camera for 2/3 less than the price of an M8 upgrade...... This is what I would a proper upgrade

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Robert - I can't figure out whether you are playing devils advocate, or whether you are one of the incompetents working for Leica Marketing.

 

The upgrade ladder you suggest is a very expensive route to a larger sensor M camera with certain hardware issues resolved. Your guess at the price of a 'FF M9' is far too high for it's market and would likely kill Leica. The upgrade ladder, and the 'FF M9' price have to be set with sympathy for one another; anything less will create a ruinous relationship with M8 owners, put-off 'M9' purchasers, or both. That's Kamikaze marketing I'd say.

 

.................. Chris

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but the main condition is that it needs users like you to succeed ...

 

Like who?

 

I can put 12000 US into the market NOW ... and there're fat chances it'll become 15000 US tomorrow, if I give 12000 US to a camera dealer, it's 100% guaranteed that I lose 3000 US in one second.

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Guest Robert Belasario
Robert - I can't figure out whether you are playing devils advocate, or whether you are one of the incompetents working for Leica Marketing.

 

The upgrade ladder you suggest is a very expensive route to a larger sensor M camera with certain hardware issues resolved. Your guess at the price of a 'FF M9' is far too high for it's market and would likely kill Leica. The upgrade ladder, and the 'FF M9' price have to be set with sympathy for one another; anything less will create a ruinous relationship with M8 owners, put-off 'M9' purchasers, or both. That's Kamikaze marketing I'd say.

 

.................. Chris

 

Chris, isn't the current 1.800$ upgrade a bit "off" pricewise..... 39% of the forums users will go for it however, good chance they will go for the second, third etc. upgrade too. I see it as you do as well but you forget the dedivation of some of the current M8 users, you only need to dig deeper in this forum to find this out.

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Guest Robert Belasario
Like who?

 

I can put 12000 US into the market NOW ... and there're fat chances it'll become 15000 US tomorrow, if I give 12000 US to a camera dealer, it's 100% guaranteed that I lose 3000 US in one second.

 

Sdai, point taken..... when refering to people with common sense.

 

Will the 1.800$ upgrade improve IQ or the value of the M8 .... and according to Leica it's only the start of the upgrade campaign, yet 39% of the forum jumps at it, and will go for the next one, and the next .... once youre into the vicious circle of M8 upgrades it's hard to get out of it ..... for a half upgraded M8 will have very little resale value, but then again for people with money to burn .... who gives a cat's fiddle

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Where we are is that you actually have to take a decision on this upgrade with imperfect data; we don't know (and I suspect Leica doesn't know) what the final roadmap will be.

 

If you look at this from a game theory perspective, ther are two rational strategies - (a) follow all Leica's upgrades, and hope that that mininises cost/maximises resale value, or (

only do upgrades that really offer something worthwhile to you specifically.

 

Strategy (a) is probably a good way to go for those concerned about resale vale, and (

for those who view the M8 as a long term part of their toolkit, and don't really care about resale value.

 

But no question, Leica have stirred up a hornet's nest of unceratinty, fear and doubt....which is why there are all these threads.

 

To the point of the "perfect marketing insight" - actually I think not - as a short term revenue maximization strategy, yes, pretty good, but as a marketing strategy? No, long term there is no way at least some subset of the M8 owner community don't feel betrayed.

 

Sandy

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Will the 1.800$ upgrade improve IQ or the value of the M8 .... and according to Leica it's only the start of the upgrade campaign, yet 39% of the forum jumps at it, and will go for the next one, and the next .... once youre into the vicious circle of M8 upgrades it's hard to get out of it ..... for a half upgraded M8 will have very little resale value, but then again for people with money to burn .... who gives a cat's fiddle

 

I'd say Leica is expecting maybe 10% of users to do this upgrade judging from the number of slots available. Some of those 10% will do it because they will always want the latest. Others, because a quieter shutter with better feel is essential to having the M8 handle like an M. IQ has got nothing to do with it. Most of those who have complained about the shutter feel and noise find the IQ more then adequate and would likely be unwilling to spend a penny on an IQ upgrade. Others would not spend a nickel to change the shutter but will pay for more pixels. Different strokes. A $10,000. M9? will never happen (not unless the US dollar sinks to less then half its current value).

 

"once youre into the vicious circle of M8 upgrades it's hard to get out of it" Nonsense, for the minority of users that purchase this or some other future upgrade why would that be?

 

As to people buying Leica having more money then brains. People who are not professionals buy expensive cameras (even $30,000 MF backs and $8,000 Canon's), tennis rackets, golf clubs, performance cars, fishing gear etc., People also spend loads of money on vacations, expensive restaurant meals, wine, designer clothes, art, consumer electronics, luxury cars, etc. No one needs any of this stuff but if you can afford it and it makes you happy. Knock yourself out.

 

If you feel that any or all of these products are a ridiculous waste of money -don't buy them. Why waste time online to sniff and proclaim that all these people have more money then brains.

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Common sense tells me that if the cost of upgrading the M8 exceeds (or even comes close to) the cost of a new M9, Leica as a company will not have a future. The point is moot and your idea does not make much sense. I suspect the cost of the M9, whenever that will be introduced, is a long time off and will carry a high price tag.

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{snipped}

To the point of the "perfect marketing insight" - actually I think not - as a short term revenue maximization strategy, yes, pretty good, but as a marketing strategy? No, long term there is no way at least some subset of the M8 owner community don't feel betrayed.

 

Sandy

 

While I agree with you on the FUD factor (I wish Leica had better communications types, especially in English) I just don't get this.

 

How on earth can people feel betrayed if they're buying something and using it "now?" Is there no value attached to having and using something anymore?

 

I mean, this is just silly. No-one is entitled to more camera than they bought when they bought the M8 (that's not to say that Leica shouldn't continue supporting the M8 base, by releasing firmware, etc...)!

 

Where's the betrayal? Is it just a price thing?

 

If I can upgrade and use that upgrade for a year or two (like the extended warranties) then that has value to me as a pro shooter. In my business, I will write down the upgrade cost over time, and while non-pros can't do that, they still have to do it mentally... and the usual ultimate "write down" comes when a new model supercedes the old one in the market.

 

I'm glad Leica isn't just playing that game.

 

So even if Robert's timeline and "genius" marketing strategy were true (which I doubt), then, assuming the M9 is still 18 months away, I would have had a "better than M8" camera for 18 months!

 

That's worth something, and as long as it's less than a new body, then it's a deal.

 

After all, iIt's not like I can just go out and buy an M9 before it's ready! It's not like I haven't used my current M8 for almost a full cycle!

 

So with upgrading I will be using the M8 all along (and making money with it), and the value of that use must be taken into account.

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Guest Robert Belasario

Pascal Meheut

 

I might be a troll, this fully depends upon you vision and definition of a troll, but "just another-," no you have it wrong my dearest friend. I am an M8 user, and actually a pretty satisfied one at that, I am also a Leica customer, here I am a triffle less satisfied, being both an M8 user and a Leica customer puts me into the position of being able to join a Leica forum, or user group or whatever and project any and every concern or criticism I have towards Leica M8 and Leica in general.

 

I hope you understand this sofar, I also hope that you understand that people not sharing your view on anything are "just another" this or that, and that people in general are able to have another vision or view, maybe correct and maybe not, but it is after all a view to which they are entitled and might I reflect just putting this down with one or two simple sentances is rather easy and simple and doesn't contribute to anything other than wanting to postion oneself somewhere where "one" is definately not.

 

But having tracked down some of your past posts this seems to be your manner of communication, and what can I say about that ..... other than you are entitled to doing so as much as you please, and I can see it definately pleases you in some morbid manner.

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Guest Robert Belasario

Jamie Roberts,

 

there is no betrayal..... just the start of a roadmap with an uncertain end and a not yet specified cost factor, but judging at the rate of the current upgrade it's not going to be cheap.

 

I doubt wether the 1.800$ will provide you with a better M8 for 18 months I seriously doubt that to, a slower marginally quieter shutter and a bullet proof screen cover????

 

And anyway it is anyones choice to mek use of the upgrade or not, I agree that nobaody puts a trigger to your head.... but still the easyness of 39% of the LUF M8 user base whom say "Yeah" is the part which gives Leica a free trip to ponder into any given or not given route they might want to ponder into .... again without providing adaquate infroamtion about where the end lies, what the possibilitirs might be, what happens if one doesn't sign up for the first upgrade and wants to join the seconde, third or whatever ... etc.

 

All seems rather unprofessional at a first glance, but apparantly works having a client base as Leica has.

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All seems rather unprofessional at a first glance, but apparantly works having a client base as Leica has.

 

Robert, as I said to someone yesterday when they were making exactly the same comment about Leica's customers (a bit of a coincidence thinking about it), it doesn't do to call them idiots - which is what you are implying, because those idiots are your fellow forum members.

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Guest Robert Belasario

Steve,

 

I wouldn't dare call them idiots, which I don't.

 

I don't approve of their "approach" neither do I approach of their Leica "antics" if this is the correct wording, if this is any wording at all :-) defending their product at the cost of common logic... but therefor I don't imply them being idiots. Perhaps applying a tad lesser common sense than they would within their normal lives.... but idiots.... certainly not

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