Daniel Ortego Posted February 3, 2008 Share #41 Posted February 3, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ok, I’m still a little fussy on the whole schedule thing’. Let’s say that on 1 March I purchase the update (mod) and I happen to be certificate number 900 because every man, woman and child decided to purchase as soon as it’s posted. Would Leica still summons my camera in August or later based on a workflow of 300 per month? Unless I’m missing the point, that would mean that my M8 would sit around in Solms (or where ever) until 1 October before they even start, so I would theoretically receive it back around the end of November or first of December? Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 3, 2008 Posted February 3, 2008 Hi Daniel Ortego, Take a look here Update from PMA. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
canlogic Posted February 3, 2008 Share #42 Posted February 3, 2008 I beleive they would request your camera so that it would arrive in Germany when the work was to be done. You would be out your camera for 4 weeks if they live up to there schedule. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #43 Posted February 3, 2008 Perhaps 15+ months of M8 induced stress was getting to him... I have to give it to Leica UK, they certainly don't let any stress get to them. I'm sure I can hear them hiding under their desks whenever I call up... Finally, after 6 months, I've been able to buy a replacement WATE hood after I crunched it. Leica UK's response up to now? "They're not in production yet..." No he was a marketing major and this gets him back to what he really wanted to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #44 Posted February 3, 2008 Guy, so many thanks, that's a hugely useful clarification. I'm not sure where it leaves me except that I'm really excited now! I wonder... any discount if you get more than one upgrade simultaneously? (after all, it's less labour, less shipping and a minimum of two years' less warranty...) Still saving my pennies! That is a great question about bundling and exactly what Jack and i asked. I guess until they have more upgrades out than they can address that issue as it is today they say no but of course that may change later as more upgrades come out. Good question though Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted February 3, 2008 Share #45 Posted February 3, 2008 Just a bit of random wish-list speculation, but here goes in any case... Several people have mentioned that FF isn't that big a deal to them. I'd have to say I'm among them: I've been buying my lenses with the M8's crop factor in mind, and although most of them would be happy on a FF, the 21mm in particular may have to drop out of the stable if I upgraded. I'm also more or less happy with the 10Mp resolution of the existing sensor. What I'm not happy with is the high ISO noise the current sensor exhibits. It was lagging behind state of the art when it was released (in this respect – obviously not in others) and right now there are much better options on the market for low-light work, which is an area in which I'd have thought Leica would want to excel. A really good high-ISO sensor coupled with a Summilux would give you a world-beating low-light reportage package... So, Leica, what about offering a choice of sensor upgrades? FF for those who want, but maybe also a direct replacement for the existing cropped sensor that simply represents current state-of-the-art ISO performance? It doesn't have to pack any more pixels in –*not for me, anyway – so long as it's good to, let's say, ISO 3200 without major corrective surgery. I know, I know... not likely. But it's a nice dream... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milyovsky Posted February 3, 2008 Share #46 Posted February 3, 2008 If all else except for the the size of the sensors were the same would there be any difference on the M8 in using the 1.3 cropped version with a 28mm lens and a full frame version with a 35mm lens? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #47 Posted February 3, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) When Leica outgrows the M8 shell is that when infinity ends? Let's face it how long can this go 2 years, 5 years, 7 years at some point there will be a technology that completely changes they way we shoot but this buys us some time with upgrading that costs some money but for us selling and buying is not only a pain but kills your wallet . So we have our investment today and let's just say we went on to buy option number 1 and option 3 at a total cost of 3k than basically what you are getting is a new camera per say and a fresh warranty. So if done correctly by the user than this actually could save them time , money and hassle. lets' also say you want RF shooting here it is because there is no one challenging it either. Just imagine having that kind of power in your own business. For me if I look long and hard at this it buys me time it gives me a new warranty on a camera that has seen some serious use and I don't have to generate 6k to get something new. So in essence it takes maybe the 2 year shelf life on a digital camera and pushes me out to 4 years or more. That idea is starting to build some power within my decision. I think many others are starting to see the power of this , yes this upgrade may not be for them but new ones will come that do and they may make more sense. First thing I said to Leica was this does not effect my images , give me upgrades that will improve the image but this also buys me time until I get a upgrade that does or wait for it. People can moan and groan about it but it is a very interesting concept and leica decided it is worth going for. I give them credit for that because no one else has the balls to try it. And certainly Canon and Nikon may want to look at this also. But this does have some power and folks need to look at it outside there own shoes also and think ahead. This is not a 10 minute gratification purchase. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted February 3, 2008 Share #48 Posted February 3, 2008 Just a bit of random wish-list speculation, but here goes in any case... Several people have mentioned that FF isn't that big a deal to them. I'd have to say I'm among them: I've been buying my lenses with the M8's crop factor in mind, and although most of them would be happy on a FF, the 21mm in particular may have to drop out of the stable if I upgraded. I'm also more or less happy with the 10Mp resolution of the existing sensor. What I'm not happy with is the high ISO noise the current sensor exhibits. It was lagging behind state of the art when it was released (in this respect – obviously not in others) and right now there are much better options on the market for low-light work, which is an area in which I'd have thought Leica would want to excel. A really good high-ISO sensor coupled with a Summilux would give you a world-beating low-light reportage package... So, Leica, what about offering a choice of sensor upgrades? FF for those who want, but maybe also a direct replacement for the existing cropped sensor that simply represents current state-of-the-art ISO performance? It doesn't have to pack any more pixels in –*not for me, anyway – so long as it's good to, let's say, ISO 3200 without major corrective surgery. I know, I know... not likely. But it's a nice dream... Although I anm a FF proponent, your wishes reflect mine very closely. I also belief that the world leading performance of Leica glass at 1,4 paired with high quality high ISO rates would be a world leading argument. Say you could get with 10MP crop up to ISO 3200 without any visible noise and with FF and maybe 12-14MP up to ISO6400 or even higher (think Nikon D3) and this paired with the unreachable quality of high speed Leica glass wide open. I would say these should be killer arguments. And I would also see a third option - FF with 22-24MP but same ISO performance as the crop version of the M8 at ISO 3200. So as a customer you could esily have all the choices you would like to get from Leica. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #49 Posted February 3, 2008 If all else except for the the size of the sensors were the same would there be any difference on the M8 in using the 1.3 cropped version with a 28mm lens and a full frame version with a 35mm lens? Maybe a mm or two either way . So you move everything back up to what you had as a film camera. Now a 135mm maybe more important and a 12mm CV lens maybe less important . Think of it in a 1 step lens shift up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #50 Posted February 3, 2008 Although I anm a FF proponent, your wishes reflect mine very closely. I also belief that the world leading performance of Leica glass at 1,4 paired with high quality high ISO rates would be a world leading argument. Say you could get with 10MP crop up to ISO 3200 without any visible noise and with FF and maybe 12-14MP up to ISO6400 or even higher (think Nikon D3) and this paired with the unreachable quality of high speed Leica glass wide open. I would say these should be killer arguments. And I would also see a third option - FF with 22-24MP but same ISO performance as the crop version of the M8 at ISO 3200. So as a customer you could esily have all the choices you would like to get from Leica. Peter it will come down to the best preformance a given sensor can do at the time Leica decides to move on FF. I would suspect leica will want to push the ISO up and the noise down. There in business to sell camera's and that is the hot ticket and so are MPX and anything under 16 mpx and no one will be interested in upgrading Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted February 3, 2008 Share #51 Posted February 3, 2008 snipPeople can moan and groan about it but it is a very interesting concept and leica decided it is worth going for. I give them credit for that because no one else has the balls to try it. And certainly Canon and Nikon may want to look at this also. But this does have some power and folks need to look at it outside there own shoes also and think ahead. This is not a 10 minute gratification purchase. could not agree more in many respects this is the single most exciting news from PMA & I find it remarkable that this announcement is not making a bigger splash I started a thread on the News section in DPR here Impressive: News Discussion Forum: Digital Photography Review I think Leica should have more exposure for their innovative & bold move Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted February 3, 2008 Share #52 Posted February 3, 2008 Guy, Thanks from me too for providing these insights (and well done, Leica). Is there any news on support for SDHC memory? It seems to me that since the intention is to go FF then additional memory will come in very handy with a 21MP(?) sensor. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted February 3, 2008 Share #53 Posted February 3, 2008 People can moan and groan about it but it is a very interesting concept and leica decided it is worth going for. I give them credit for that because no one else has the balls to try it. And certainly Canon and Nikon may want to look at this also. But this does have some power and folks need to look at it outside there own shoes also and think ahead. This is not a 10 minute gratification purchase. Hear, hear. When I heard about the first upgrade I was a little disappointed at the bang-for-buck of what was on offer. But knowing that it's the first of several, and that Leica are committed to this approach, and that there are things I am interested in waiting in the wings, I'm really warming to this. It does take a lot of courage to go for a different business model to that of engineered obsolescence, but I think it's a great move, and I'll be shelling out to support it the moment "my" upgrade package hits the shelves! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #54 Posted February 3, 2008 Pete that answer on SDHC will have to come from Stefan Daniels in Solms . He is the man in charge of the M system and he knows all about this request , trust me. I have been driving him nuts on this one plus others as well. Thank my blessing they actually like me after me driving them nuts. LOL But they know my position and it is what users want and what is best for them also. I think we all would like to see Leica improve and in the process improve the user experience. That is the goal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #55 Posted February 3, 2008 Hear, hear. When I heard about the first upgrade I was a little disappointed at the bang-for-buck of what was on offer. But knowing that it's the first of several, and that Leica are committed to this approach, and that there are things I am interested in waiting in the wings, I'm really warming to this. It does take a lot of courage to go for a different business model to that of engineered obsolescence, but I think it's a great move, and I'll be shelling out to support it the moment "my" upgrade package hits the shelves! Exactly Guy this one may not cut it for some folks and leica knows that very well but the next one maybe the winner for many or the next one. The cool part is we have a future with this body and does not need to be replaced anytime soon. For me this is a extra bonus. I think if you look at it in depreciation our bodies have gone down a lot of money . I know it is strong at the moment for used but by the time you buy a upgrade you used it very much and got a lot of you money out of it but this just brings it to new again. Folks are saying I spent 5400 than 1800 and now I have paid 7200 for it but what they forget is they bought a extra 2 years of life on it so the normal 2 years just got extended to 4 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JChance Posted February 3, 2008 Share #56 Posted February 3, 2008 First thing I said to Leica was this does not effect my images , give me upgrades that will improve the image.. Thanks for the info Guy, I am looking into an M8 purchase and really appreciate your concise and informative post, there has been a lot of BS flying around!.. What was the response to your statement? I'll pass on the 1st option... All I'm looking for is better ISO and a full frame, so i'm hoping option 2 will be a sensor change. It seems there is still no confirmation as to whether they can or will offer a full frame for the M8. I realize that they are "investigating the possibility" but I would really like a straight answer if I am going to empty my bank account this week. Yes, I could wait but I would be happy to take on the M8 now and deal with the crop factor and poor ISO, confident in the fact that at least sometime in the future I will have a better sensor in the body. J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 3, 2008 Share #57 Posted February 3, 2008 Sounds like it's the start of a retro-fit a la carte program. In time, there will be a list of options, you send the camera in for the options you want and get a 2 year warranty. Send it in multiple times, and you get multiple overlapping warranties and are therefore being charged multiple times for the same thing. If that's a problem for you, Mark, don't send your increasingly upgraded M8 in for the next session more than once every two years. Simple! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #58 Posted February 3, 2008 My personal view from me not Leica's marketing: There is no question we will see a improved sensor be it crop or FF , lets face the fact how many upgrades are out there that they can do that does not include the sensor. Not many It stands to reason there offering several upgrade options as technology gets better that there not going after a sensor improvement . They know ever Leica owner is interested in this upgrade to some degree, it would not be very smart of them from a upgrade program not to have this one as there main target in upgrades. Like I said Photokinia will be interesting to say the least. When the CEO pretty much let's it be known what he wants to do, he is the leader of the army and folks will follow those orders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 3, 2008 Share #59 Posted February 3, 2008 Yes Jack and i immediately thought the actually release was less chunky feeling. Just nice pressure going from stage 1 to release without that indent feeling. Hard to describe but just felt better and the sound or should I say the less sound was impressive , still has the whirl from the motor but it is dampened very nicely. I shoot lot's of corporate events with speakers and let's face it with a M8 i am pretty close with a 90 lens and the least amount of noise from me the better and this will help a lot. More stealth if that is a real word than yes it is and for the street not sure anyone would hear it. Guy when I got my Black M8 back from NJ the shutter release was/is like silk. Still has the detents for the 3 stops but much smoother then the chrome body. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 3, 2008 Share #60 Posted February 3, 2008 If that's a problem for you, Mark, don't send your increasingly upgraded M8 in for the next session more than once every two years. Simple! Yes you could stretch that warranty out forever to be honest Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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