Jump to content

Another pros view on the upgrade


dseelig

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

John is a good guy. He is a full-time working pro and a friend. Yes, he does put a fair amount of effort into this blog and to educating other photographers. What little income is produced from his blog pales in comparison to his assignment and relicensing of images.

 

Some of you guys have jumped on him because he wrote about the problem and the upgrade. Frankly, Leica should have produced the camera with the new shutter and without all the assorted problems that came along with the M8. Other blogs and sites have announced the "upgrade" program.

 

PDNPulse

 

I've shot Leicas since I started shooting in the early seventies. I carry them along side my Canon kit and sometimes shoot advertising gigs with just the Leicas. The problems with the M8 for a working pro are significant. Significant enough that many professionals decided to not purchase the M8.

 

I own five M bodies. Two are M8's. I (like many of the readers here) have put up with locked bodies, bad repairs, horrible color and the need for UV/IR filters. All because I prefer rangefinders for some types of work. As a professional, I need a camera system that is reliable. The M8 has not proven itself to me. Frankly, I don't trust them to not lock-up under pressure.

 

I point this out as an example that pro shooters put a lot of strain and abuse onto their gear - it is just part of the process when you are moving around on location. If the camera is unreliable, then a little bit of doubt clings to you when you are shooting. Hence, carrying extra gear on a shoot for just-in-case scenarios.

 

John wrote a quick piece about the M8 upgrade program from his perspective.

 

Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. The M8 release and fixes that followed have not been exactly been the PR that Leica was hoping to reap.

 

You can only make so many excuses for your kit when you begin to realize that you may have made a mistake by not waiting for a "revised or upgraded" camera.

 

I truly hope that Leica continues to be to grow the market with the M8/M8-2 and the camera that follows. I don't know if I will continue shooting the M8 for assignments. One of my M8 bodies is on the way to New Jersey for repair. (it's second trip)

 

Twice in less than a year says a lot to me about build quality and reliability.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 159
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

{snipped}

Twice in less than a year says a lot to me about build quality and reliability.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way; truly I am. But your anecdotal evidence doesn't make a solid case. I've had my M8 for nearly two years now, and my Canon stuff has been into CPS more often than anything Leica (and I use my M8 alongside the Canon gear).

 

Now, are there flaws with the M8? Yes, and some I really don't like, but on balance Leica has done everything they could, I think, given the technology and company they had at the time.

 

Just because they're "side-grading" the current shutter doesn't mean the one I've put 10s of thousands of shots on is no good (and since Nikon use it too, I guess it's "reliable" enough)

 

If you'd rather deal with the kind of stuff that Canon and Nikon put out (you know, non-focusing AF cameras or $12K pro bodies that eat files, like the 1ds2 did when it was released) then good on you ;)

 

Just because people forget that Canon / Nikon stuff is about as reliable as the Leica stuff doesn't make the Leica stuff less reliable. Sorry. And your sample size is not significant enough to mean anything.

 

So I'm sorry, but your decision and the John's blog entry are spurious at best. I see no reason to take any of the generalities there as specific fact, even though both of you may be good guys. Let's have a beer and discuss this :)

 

If you want to talk facts, then ok. If you want to switch, then ok. But let's not pretend the M8 isn't reliable; reliability is not the problem.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry you feel this way; truly I am. But your anecdotal evidence doesn't make a solid case. I've had my M8 for nearly two years now, and my Canon stuff has been into CPS more often than anything Leica (and I use my M8 alongside the Canon gear).

 

Now, are there flaws with the M8? Yes, and some I really don't like, but on balance Leica has done everything they could, I think, given the technology and company they had at the time.

 

Just because they're "side-grading" the current shutter doesn't mean the one I've put 10s of thousands of shots on is no good (and since Nikon use it too, I guess it's "reliable" enough)

 

If you'd rather deal with the kind of stuff that Canon and Nikon put out (you know, non-focusing AF cameras or $12K pro bodies that eat files, like the 1ds2 did when it was released) then good on you ;)

 

Just because people forget that Canon / Nikon stuff is about as reliable as the Leica stuff doesn't make the Leica stuff less reliable. Sorry. And your sample size is not significant enough to mean anything.

 

So I'm sorry, but your decision and the John's blog entry are spurious at best. I see no reason to take any of the generalities there as specific fact, even though both of you may be good guys. Let's have a beer and discuss this :)

 

If you want to talk facts, then ok. If you want to switch, then ok. But let's not pretend the M8 isn't reliable; reliability is not the problem.

 

 

Jamie,

 

Having both bodies fail in the middle of a national advertising campaign, when they are less than three months old, a day apart - is not reliable, regardless of how much spin you put on it.

 

I can only go from my own experience. I had two bodies fail within a day of each other. One body was sent back to New Jersey. I was told six weeks for a repair. I appealed to a higher-up within Leica to speed up the repair. I received my "repaired" camera a week later. The "repaired" camera It was dead on arrival. Leica replaced that body pronto. The other body came back to life after removing the battery and letting it sit for a couple of days.

 

My other body continues to lock-up when shooting. The frame selector lever has fallen off. (minor but a problem)

 

I use the 1ds Mark III and it is a fine camera when used with the L lenses, which I do. I never had focusing "issues" with the original 1Ds. Like yourself, I did have a problem with the 1Ds II with back-focus. The 1Ds III seems to lock-on pretty well and have had not problems with focusing. (fingers crossed)

 

Everyone has had different experiences with the camera. I push my gear hard. I travel all the time. In fairly adverse conditions.

 

It is difficult to continue shooting when your camera locks up. Yes, you can "unfreeze" it by removing the battery for a few seconds and then restarting the camera. It slows you down and removes your concentration from the shoot.

 

I can only give you a "sample" from my own experience.

 

I understand that you are a wedding and event photographer, I shoot annual reports, magazine stories and ad campaigns. The requirements for each type of shooting is different. I sincerely hope you have a second body when you are shooting your assignments. I carry two Leicas plus three Canons. I've come close to tossing the M8 out of a helicopter a couple of times because of freeze-ups.

 

My own experience is to carry lots of back-up.

 

I truly hope that Leica going forward solidifies the camera into a reliable machine.

 

I don't know if I am going to upgrade the cameras. I doubt I will. If they continue to fail on me, then I will no longer use them for professional work. My first loyalty is to my clients, not Leica.

Link to post
Share on other sites

{snipped}I understand that you are a wedding and event photographer, I shoot annual reports, magazine stories and ad campaigns. The requirements for each type of shooting is different. I sincerely hope you have a second body when you are shooting your assignments. I carry two Leicas plus three Canons. I've come close to tossing the M8 out of a helicopter a couple of times because of freeze-ups.

 

My own experience is to carry lots of back-up.

 

I truly hope that Leica going forward solidifies the camera into a reliable machine.

 

I don't know if I am going to upgrade the cameras. I doubt I will. If they continue to fail on me, then I will no longer use them for professional work. My first loyalty is to my clients, not Leica.

 

Cameron, on the repair time and turn-around (and on quality control issues) I hear you loud and clear. Leica has to make this a lot better, and I think they're trying to do that.

 

And I hear you on backup too!. Though I've never had my M8 freeze or lock on a job, I have had a battery contact problem (off-job, thankfully) that needed fixing (but I had the same problem with my 1d2 battery contacts :))

 

When I shoot a wedding, where there are no re-takes, I typically take my M8, a 5d, a DMR and 2 film Ms as backup :) I've found that everything fails, no matter who makes it, but I agree that if I had your experience with the M8 I'd think twice about using them.

 

BTW, once the file-eating nature of the 1ds2 was sorted by Canon, it was a fine body. I'm sure the 1ds3 is fabulous too. My current beef with Canon is that while their pro bodies are great, their lens build quality has fallen a lot (with a lot of sample variance, even in L glass). And currently Nikon isn't making the primes I want...

 

So I'm hoping they both continue making their systems better. I've invested a lot now in M glass (they will always work on the film bodies, for whatever that's worth)... I'm sure Leica will get the QC improved.

 

BTW--if your M8 is locking up, check the battery contacts (use a different battery and see if it does the same thing :) And then send it to NJ if it doesn't perform.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi let me chime in here. Leica in New Jersey when I was waiting for my m8 told me my original 35 aspherical, the first version, would not work with the m8.I took Leica at there word and it was more then one person telling me that. I sold it and no not 5 grand it was no where near mint condition. I bought the new model got a m8 a while later. Had my lens 6 bit coded bought filters. The lens was absolute rubbish at 1.4 . the man who bought my original aspherical lens put it on his m8 said it was great. Canon when it makes a mistake rectifies it the mk111 problem they took everyone in weather you were having problems or not I know I had one with problems one not. L glass buy it new send it in they will fix it for free. I thought Leica would know what worked on there cameras. The problems with 35 asph summiluxes have they ever publicly acknowledged. they blow ir sensitivity we have to pay a premuim for filters. They put a shutter non m8 like a non tough screen we have to pay for it. Nocitluxes do not work properly. they are not getting there act together. In nov they got my 75 summilux for coding I got back paperwork that said 3 to 5 weeks It is now febuary I still do not have it back. When I blow any part of a photo job I take the money hit. When Leica makes a mistake it turns into a money making venture for them

This is just plain wrong. Consumer advocates will always tell you extended warranties are not worth it. . David PS on Mr Harrington do more then look at the first page read what he is talking about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi let me chime in here. Leica in New Jersey when I was waiting for my m8 told me my original 35 aspherical, the first version, would not work with the m8.I took Leica at there word and it was more then one person telling me that. I sold it and no not 5 grand it was no where near mint condition. I bought the new model got a m8 a while later. Had my lens 6 bit coded bought filters. The lens was absolute rubbish at 1.4 . the man who bought my original aspherical lens put it on his m8 said it was great. Canon when it makes a mistake rectifies it the mk111 problem they took everyone in weather you were having problems or not I know I had one with problems one not. L glass buy it new send it in they will fix it for free. I thought Leica would know what worked on there cameras. The problems with 35 asph summiluxes have they ever publicly acknowledged. they blow ir sensitivity we have to pay a premuim for filters. They put a shutter non m8 like a non tough screen we have to pay for it. Nocitluxes do not work properly. they are not getting there act together. In nov they got my 75 summilux for coding I got back paperwork that said 3 to 5 weeks It is now febuary I still do not have it back. When I blow any part of a photo job I take the money hit. When Leica makes a mistake it turns into a money making venture for them

This is just plain wrong. Consumer advocates will always tell you extended warranties are not worth it. . David PS on Mr Harrington do more then look at the first page read what he is talking about.

 

I'm sorry for your experiences with various lenses, but you need to have the M8 matched to your lenses. I'm sorry, too, that Leica seems not very able to do this well.

 

My 35 Lux ASPH is perfect. My Noctilux, wide open, is all everything I'd expect from an f1.0 lens of its design.

 

When my DMR / 35 Lux dropped off a tripod on a studio shoot (my fault--non compatible "compatible" plate) Lecia fixed both for free with a two-week turnaround (considering the lens was old, that was nice of them).

 

On the other hand, my new Canon 50 1.2L lens front element came off with the lens hood on the job, and the previous dozen shots were ruined. CPS fixed it in 5 weeks and they charged me $100 to do it. When I asked them why this wasn't a warranty item, they said it was because I had picked the lens up by the lend hood....

 

Seriously. We're still "negotiating" this (and it isn't the money it's the principle of the thing).

 

There is nothing wrong with the current shutter (it's a Seiko, IIRC and is used by Nikon) or the LCD screen: it's the same as everyone elses. Now just because they're the first company to actually make an industrial sapphire screen for an LCD, and are offering it to their current customers, you have no right to feel abused :) It's absurd.

 

Having said that, Dave, they do need to get their pro turn-around act together, and hopefully it will be better than CPS.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would take issue that it is the shutter is good enough for nikon it is okay. The M series always had a quiet shutter that no one else had . The strength of the leica was to be quiet and unobtrusive. This new shutter is an admission that leica made a mistake. After the uv ir fiasco , the 35t summilux fiasco they told me my original 35 aspherical would not work I found out from the buyer it was great and the lens on the m8, i replaced it with the current model was beyond a dog.with an m8. the noctilux losing my 75 summilux for god knows how long these problems have hit the heights of absurdity. We should not be paying for leica's mistakes anymore. David

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would take issue that it is the shutter is good enough for nikon it is okay. The M series always had a quiet shutter that no one else had . The strength of the leica was to be quiet and unobtrusive. This new shutter is an admission that leica made a mistake. After the uv ir fiasco , the 35t summilux fiasco they told me my original 35 aspherical would not work I found out from the buyer it was great and the lens on the m8, i replaced it with the current model was beyond a dog.with an m8. the noctilux losing my 75 summilux for god knows how long these problems have hit the heights of absurdity. We should not be paying for leica's mistakes anymore. David

 

What?? Leica should admit it made a mistake because the shutter was a little loud? And they should have used titanium blades to begin with? Come on thats ludicrous. Sell your gear!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it incredibly obnoxious that anyone what tell someone to sell there gear. I want leica to be a more responsible company. Leica blows uv ur sensitivity and we pay for there mistakes. 100 or more for a 39 mm filter. Canon got the mk 111 to a working point and kept working on there problems and now looks like they fixed it. I was without my mk 111 for a week Leica for at least a month for a paid upgrade. That never should have been in the first place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it incredibly obnoxious that anyone what tell someone to sell there gear. I want leica to be a more responsible company. Leica blows uv ur sensitivity and we pay for there mistakes. 100 or more for a 39 mm filter. Canon got the mk 111 to a working point and kept working on there problems and now looks like they fixed it. I was without my mk 111 for a week Leica for at least a month for a paid upgrade. That never should have been in the first place.

 

Dave--we can agree to disagree on the paid upgrade, ok? What do you say to all those 1d2 users that "had to" shell out for a 1d2n? Other than "well, if you don't want the prettier LCD screen, don't do it!! LOL!! :)

 

No-one had to buy the M8 with it's original shutter. If you thought it was too loud, then no-one held a gun to your head. For all I know, the one that's in the M8 now is the quietest one they could find and still get over 1/1000th shutter at the time.

 

Geez guys, the camera design is what? 3 years old now at least?

 

So give Leica a break on the upgrade. It's not an admission of anything at all; it's a new model and you get the chance to get it for less than full admission price.

 

The End.

 

As for history, well, Leica also provided free filters for the IR problem, Dave, and a sweet deal on M glass--something Canon has never done.

Should it have gone out the door like that? I dunno, probably not. But that's history. To their credit, Leica also recalled all their cameras for the intial electronics problem (and admitted them at the CEO level).

 

On the 1d3 issue, Canon was silent (they didn't admit anything at all though they didn't deny either--that's their company "way") until it became obvious through RG's insistence that there was a real problem with the 1d3.

 

I'm not a Pollyanna here: let's NOT let Leica off the hook for electrical problems or FW problems or other issues with M8 quality control.

 

But give the upgradeability a rest. It's a Good Thing, not a Bad Thing. I wish Canon would do the same, frankly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The uv ir filters should have been at cost .

 

Yeah, you're right, every new lens Leica sold should have come with the IR filter for not much $$

 

As it is, though, you still need to figure in the price of two free ones and the result of having BH and Adorama distribute them too; I'm kind of glad Leica didn't distribute them all.

 

Personally, since I bought a lot of my M glass used and after the M8 IR thing it "came with" the IR filter more often than not. I can see how bad it would be if you already had your M collection.

 

So I think I paid for three from BH, got two free, and the rest were factored into the used deal, so I probably did get the rest close to cost anyway. I'm assuming they're not that cheap, actually

Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of points here: first, I got my M8 about 4 months ago. Functionally, it has worked from day one. Yea, there were some problems, awb, auto exposure off, etc, but no lockups, trips back to NJ or Solms, no outright failures. My point is that all manufactures use their early adaptors as beta testers. Canon, Nikon, Phase one, etc - all included. If reliability is a major concern, don't buy 1st generation of anything! Nothing new here.

 

My other point is a little upsetting - the shutter noise is no big deal to me. But what is important is low light shooting. Now I'm being told that in order to get the best performance in low light situations, I'm going to have to spend another $1800. I think the shutter should have been properly dampened from the beginning.

 

Just my 2 cents...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve--there's some indication that there's less vibration from the electromagnet on the initial shutter release in the new shutter, and there's some speculation that this could lead to longer hand holding times (under ideal conditions, of course).

 

That's not really the same as higher ISO speed, since of course that lets you increase the shutter speed to the point where the existing shutter doesn't interfere with clarity.

 

FWIW on the M8 as is, for me, with no mirror vibration (of course), I can hand hold my 75 Lux or 90 Cron at 1/30 or below, which is to me pretty damned good.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest Robert Belasario

Leica is taking advantage of their "more money than common sense" client base....

I'm disgusted by the whole concept. They should found and implemented solutions for the M8's current common problems first rather than worrying about a silent shutter and bullet-proof glass covers and charging 1.200€ for the deal ......

 

And then there are still members of this forum exstatically jumping up and down and backslapping each other about the perfection of Leica's service, and actually calculating that 1.200€ is not such a bad deal after all ...... which part of the world has gone mad?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert, there's no obligation to buy, no gun being held to anyone's head. To be frank, I've been using an M8 for over 12 months and have not felt that either the rear cover or shutter sounds have stopped me from getting shots during the 11,000+ times I've pressed the shutter. Sure a quieter shutter would be nice, but it's not essential in my experience.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...